football stats questions

[whatwoulddamondo?]

two honest-to-goodness questions. i'm wondering if i've been wrong for my very brief time in the business.

1. rushing yardage on a holding penalty. how would you factor this? i'd always given the runner X amount of yards (to the spot of the foul), then added 10 yards to the penalty ledger. now someone's telling me that you don't count it as a rush attempt for the ball carrier, and you adjust the penalty yardage from the line of scrimmage.

2. first-down conversions on touchdowns. i've always been told that when you score a touchdown you have converted for a first down, no matter where you are. a co-worker now says that if you are in a XXX-and-goal situation, scoring a touchdown does not count as a first down for statistical purposes.

yeah, i'm a dumbass for not knowing this, but i'd prefer to get it right. thanks for any help!

 

[linotype]

1. Runner gets the yardage to the spot of the foul, then assess a 10-yard penalty. You had it correct there.

2. Your co-worker is right. You only get a first-down conversion on a TD if it's possible to get a first down on the play.

 

[KYSportsWriter]

What he said.

 

[doubledown68]

Yup.. first downs only happen on scoring plays of 11 yards or longer.

 

[PopeDirkBenedict]

Yup.. first downs only happen on scoring plays of 11 yards or longer.

Not necessarily. If Podunk has a 3rd-and-1 at the Nowheresville 6 yard line and Johnny B. Goode runs it in for the score, that is a first down. You can have a one-yard touchdown count as a first down if the first down marker is at the half yard line.

 

[pressboxer]

Yup.. first downs only happen on scoring plays of 11 yards or longer.

Not necessarily. If Podunk has a 3rd-and-1 at the Nowheresville 6 yard line and Johnny B. Goode runs it in for the score, that is a first down. You can have a one-yard touchdown count as a first down if the first down marker is at the half yard line.

But then you would have to credit it as a 2-yard run. You have to have one yard to make the first down. If done so without scoring, you still have to have a yard to go to the end zone.

The flip side is the guy who got it to or inside the 1 without making a first down has to get shorted a yard to make it all add up. The field (in the United States, any way) is 100 yards and no play or drive can be for more than 99 yards.

 

[Columbo]

I know you guys are right, but I find that scoring weird.

If someone is scoring a TD, I just think it would be more accurate to give him a first-down on all occasions, than not.

Usually, no one has tackled the guy if he has reached the end zone.

 

[Michael_ Gee]

The TD-first down rule is responsible for one of my favorite weird stats.
In the 1940 NFL title game, the Bears beat the Redskins 73-0.
Washington had more first downs in the game.

 

[Cosmo]

My thought has always been that on 1st-and-goal, you cannot acheive another first down, so it shouldn't be a first down if you score a touchdown.

If that's the case, shouldn't you give two first downs to someone who runs for a 70-yard score?

 

[Columbo]

My thought has always been that on 1st-and-goal, you cannot acheive another first down, so it shouldn't be a first down if you score a touchdown.

If that's the case, shouldn't you give two first downs to someone who runs for a 70-yard score?

Point taken.

 

[Football_Bat]

We had a wacky prep game Friday that was a total mismatch. The winning team won 54-0, but it could've (and should've) been a LOT worse. The winning team scored 8 TDs and 4 of them were on one-play drives. The team's stud accounted for 321 total yards on just 9 touches of the ball and scored 7 TDs (4 rushing, 3 passing) and also scored a 2-point conversion and kicked 2 PATs.

Total number of first downs: 7.

Don't ask me how. (Apparently the coaches agreed to run the clock continuously early on.)

 

[bigpern23]

If the hold occurs behind or at the line of scrimmage, the RB isn't credited with a rush attempt and isn't saddled with a negative rush, right?

 

[crimsonace]

On a TD, give a first down IF THE FIRST-DOWN MARKER WAS PASSED ON THE PLAY in HS or college ball (the NFL now grants a first down on all TDs, even if it was a goal-to-go situation).

So, FB, were all of those one-play drives in the 54-0 game scored on goal-to-go situations? Otherwise, the number of first downs should be closer to 15.

(the 1940 Bears-Skins game might have used the now-archaic belief that a first down is not given on any touchdown ... only when the team lines up first-and-10).

ON PENALTIES ...

If the penalty is assessed BEYOND the line of scrimmage (e.g., LOS is the -30, penalty is assessed from the -35 back to the -25), it's scored as a 5-yard run for the RB, then a 10-yard penalty. It *does* count as a carry (that hasn't always been the case).

If the penalty is assessed BEHIND the LOS on the OFFENSE (e.g., LOS is the -30, flag is thrown at the -23 and the penalty is assessed back to the -13), *all* of the yardage is penalty yardage, so it's a 17-yard penalty.

 

[wickedwritah]

Interesting distinction, Crimson. Does that hold for the NFL, college and high school?

 

[MC Sports Guy]

well, I had always been told that on a hold it doesn't count as a carry because you replay the down, essentially meaning no play took place. Of course, that could very well be wrong, meaning I've always done it wrong.

 

[Football_Bat]

Up until a couple of years ago, holding penalties behind the line of scrimmage were spot fouls and stepped off from the point of infraction, meaning a team could loose 12, 14, 17 yards. I'm glad that rule was changed.

 

[Oz]

well, I had always been told that on a hold it doesn't count as a carry because you replay the down, essentially meaning no play took place. Of course, that could very well be wrong, meaning I've always done it wrong.

If you've got it wrong, then I've got it wrong, too. You can't charge someone for a rush attempt when still they have to replay the down. But the yards are there because they factor into the penalty.

 

[MC Sports Guy]

quote author=Oz link=topic=33116.msg863217#msg863217 date=1161619061]

well, I had always been told that on a hold it doesn't count as a carry because you replay the down, essentially meaning no play took place. Of course, that could very well be wrong, meaning I've always done it wrong.

If you've got it wrong, then I've got it wrong, too. You can't charge someone for a rush attempt when still they have to replay the down. But the yards are there because they factor into the penalty.
[/quote]

Good, I'm glad I'm not the only one. By that logic, then if the rusher is stopped behind the line, then you'd also have to credit him with a loss and tack the penalty yards on. Maybe that's right, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[crimsonace]

well, I had always been told that on a hold it doesn't count as a carry because you replay the down, essentially meaning no play took place. Of course, that could very well be wrong, meaning I've always done it wrong.

I agree with the logic, but the NCAA stats manual was revised a couple of years ago to give the runner a carry on the play, even if the down is replayed.

It only comes into play on downfield holding calls in college/pro ball. In HS ball, holding penalties are still always marched from the point of the foul, so you can have a 2-yard run and a 10-yard penalty (if assessed +2 from the LOS), or a 12-yard penalty (if assessed -2 from the LOS).

 

[printdust]

Yup.. first downs only happen on scoring plays of 11 yards or longer.

Try 10 yards.

First-and-goal means goal equals a first down/touchdown.