Jamie Moyer, HOFer?

[JC]

Why should some artificial number automatically get you into the Hall? He's shown remarkable longevity, but has he ever been considered even one of the top ten pitchers in the game at any given time. Shouldn't you have to be considered one of the best in your era to get in? His ERA alone should keep him out.

 

[HejiraHenry]

He gets a nice spot in the Hall of Good.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

He's in the Julio Franco wing in the Hall of Old.

 

[qtlaw]

Moyer was born the same year as me and graduated HS the same year and the fact that he is getting MLB'ers out where guys throw 100 mph is unbelievable.

However, HOF'er? A resounding no in my mind. I've always believed that a HOF'er was someone who was dominant for a period of time, one of the very best. That's why I do not believe Sutton was a HOF'er nor Kaat but have no problem with Koufax, Rice and even Dale Murphy. Murphy got back to back MVPs during a time when 30 HRs and 80 RBIs really meant something. Independent of the career numbers, I believe that Albert Belle should be in, he was absolutely one of the most feared hitters in the mid-late 90's, the man had 100 extra base hits in a year. (However, I understand that his disdain of writers is a factor.)

Moyer is much like Frank Tanana, amazing longevity, but not enough for the HOF.

 

[Drip]

I put Moyer in the same boat as Jim Kaat, pitchers who lasted long on the MLB level because they were left-handed, lucky, healthy, and had a little talent.

Jim Kaat may not be a Hall of Famer but to ascribe 283 wins, three 20-game seasons and 17 consecutive Gold Gloves to "luck" and "a little talent" doesn't boost your credibility as an evaluator.

Kaat he not been injured for part of the 1972 season -when he was 10-2, 2.06 in only 15 starts, less than half his normal season, he could have easily won 290 or 295 games. He was still an effective MLB pitcher at 44 years of age in his final season.

You don't win a combined 500-plus MLB games, as Moyer and Katt have, because you're left-handed and lucky. Guys like Kaat and Moyer might not have had great arms late in their careers, but they could/can really pitch.

I'll stand by my assessment and not what is on a bubble gum card. I covered Kaat late in his career. He was a great guy and was always in shape. There's no question that being a southpaw and being lucky (ie. the right organization) helped both remain in the bigs a lot longer than most.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Who is the worst non-relief pitcher in the Hall?

About a decade ago I was at dinner with a longtime baseball writer who made a pretty decent argument for Phil Niekro being the worst in Cooperstown.

 

[micropolitan guy]

There's no question that being a southpaw and being lucky (ie. the right organization) helped both remain in the bigs a lot longer than most.

Not arguing that.

But he also got guys out. That's what kept him in the big leagues longer than most. And that's what keeps Moyer in the big leagues. He gets guys out, which is what pitching is ultimately about.

Good pitchers get guys out, whether they throw 100 MPH or 65 MPH, and that's a concept many people refuse to grasp. You don't have to be a power pitcher to be a great pitcher, and you don't last for 20 years in the majors and win 280-plusd games, like Sutton, John, Kaat, Blyleven and other whose accomplishments are often minimized and denigrated by the "big numbers just because they played a long time" tag.

You last that long because you're still effective.

 

[JC]

There's no question that being a southpaw and being lucky (ie. the right organization) helped both remain in the bigs a lot longer than most.

Not arguing that.

But he also got guys out. That's what kept him in the big leagues longer than most. And that's what keeps Moyer in the big leagues. He gets guys out, which is what pitching is ultimately about.

Good pitchers get guys out, whether they throw 100 MPH or 65 MPH, and that's a concept many people refuse to grasp. You don't have to be a power pitcher to be a great pitcher, and you don't last for 20 years in the majors and win 280-plusd games, like Sutton, John, Kaat, Blyleven and other whose accomplishments are often minimized and denigrated by the "big numbers just because they played a long time" tag.

You last that long because you're still effective.

There's a big difference between being effective and being great. All you have to do is look at his ERA to see he hasn't been great.

 

[playthrough]

Can I get some VORP here please?

 

[Flying Headbutt]

Maybe if Moyer's hometown has a hall of fame. But Cooperstown? **** no.

 

[micropolitan guy]

Never said he was great, or deserved to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. But he's a good, effective pitcher, whether he's 27 or 47. And 60-65 percent of the time, the Phillies win when he pitches.

And those stats dismissed as "numbers on a bubble gum card" enabled the Phillies to win the 2008 World Series, to reach the series in 2009, and to stay in the race this year.

Your eyes tell you Cole Hamels is a far better pitcher than Jamie Moyer. Yet Moyer has six more wins (51-45) over the past four seasons. On the field results matter.

 

[Seahawk]

- a one-time all-star in more than 25 seasons of service
- only twice among top five in Cy Young voting, and never higher than fourth

It shouldn't even be up for discussion.

Hell, there is a lot of debate about Jack Morris. At least he can claim a World Series MVP, 5 all-star appearances, 5 times in the top five of Cy Young voting and a slightly better winning percentage (.577 for Morris, .571 for Moyer).

 

[cyclingwriter]

Who is the worst non-relief pitcher in the Hall?

About a decade ago I was at dinner with a longtime baseball writer who made a pretty decent argument for Phil Niekro being the worst in Cooperstown.

All-time or modern era?

I would put Drysdale and Sutton above Niekro and maybe Perry ( though Perry does have two Cy Youngs) amongst modern guys. What was the Niekro arguement? I've always felt he was a middle of the road HOF...won a lot for bad teams.

All-time? There are some ****ty choices by the Old-Timers commitees such as Rube Marquard, Chief Bender, Jessie Haines and Pud Galvin that really are mistakes.

 

[cyclingwriter]

Never said he was great, or deserved to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. But he's a good, effective pitcher, whether he's 27 or 47. And 60-65 percent of the time, the Phillies win when he pitches.

And those stats dismissed as "numbers on a bubble gum card" enabled the Phillies to win the 2008 World Series, to reach the series in 2009, and to stay in the race this year.

Your eyes tell you Cole Hamels is a far better pitcher than Jamie Moyer. Yet Moyer has six more wins (51-45) over the past four seasons. On the field results matter.

Actually, Moyer is a better pitcher now (in terms of stats) than he was at 27.

 

[micropolitan guy]

Don Drysdale only had two 20-game seasons. I think he has the fewest wins for any starting pitcher (211) in Cooperstrown, except for Koufax, who at least was a dominant pitcher for four seasons.

He had no stretches of sustained excellence. He pitched for 14 seasons, not a exceptionally long career, and was either four games ofr fewer above 500, or below .500, for 10 of them. He was 3-3, 2.95 in the World Series, hardly exceptional.

He is the "worst" pitcher in Cooperstown. He got in because of his association with Koufax, because he pitched in a large media market, and because of his scoreless-innings streak.

 

[cyclingwriter]

Don Drysdale only had two 20-game seasons. I think he has the fewest wins for any starting pitcher (211) in Cooperstrown, except for Koufax, who at least was a dominant pitcher for four seasons.

He had no stretches of sustained excellence. He pitched for 14 seasons, not a exceptionally long career, and was either four games ofr fewer above 500, or below .500, for 10 of them. He was 3-3, 2.95 in the World Series, hardly exceptional.

He is the "worst" pitcher in Cooperstown. He got in because of his association with Koufax, because he pitched in a large media market, and because of his scoreless-innings streak.

I should clarify that I meant that Drysdale and Sutton were worse pitchers than Niekro in the Hall. I will also throw a guy named Jack Chesbro in their. He had one big year for the New York Highlanders (Yankees) and the rest of his career, he was a No. 2

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Yeah, but Don Drysdale was on the Brady Bunch...

 

[Shaggy]

I don't care if he wins 300, he shouldn't get in.

He would be the worst player in Cooperstown by a country ****ing mile.

 

[RickStain]

Can I get some VORP here please?

That's kind of out of favor. WARP is the new, similar, in-favor stat, and according to baseball reference, Jamie Moyer has a career WARP of 48.1, good for 83rd all-time among pitchers.

 

[JC]

Never said he was great, or deserved to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. But he's a good, effective pitcher, whether he's 27 or 47. And 60-65 percent of the time, the Phillies win when he pitches.

And those stats dismissed as "numbers on a bubble gum card" enabled the Phillies to win the 2008 World Series, to reach the series in 2009, and to stay in the race this year.

Your eyes tell you Cole Hamels is a far better pitcher than Jamie Moyer. Yet Moyer has six more wins (51-45) over the past four seasons. On the field results matter.

Well if you judge by wins, I guess Strasburg hasn't pitched very well in his last few starts