Running 'Change My Mind' thread

[DanOregon]

When they came out with the AFI top 100 of the 20th C. I made a point of seeing those films I hadn't seen before. It was interesting seeing shots or techniques that you would go on to see mimicked in countless other films, the dolly zoom, use of shadows, the zoom out, the tracking shot....

 

[PCLoadLetter]

We need a word to describe those things that become so seminal, they are later made pale by imitation and constant reference. It often happens—the first slips from good to bad because of everything that comes after it. Before something becomes a cliche, it was brilliant enough to become a cliche.

My dad used to teach a history of motion pictures class, and this is what happened with the Marx Brothers. Students thought everything was cliched and predictable but all of those cliches originated with the Marx Brothers.

 

[Guy_Incognito]

At first glance, I thought that this thread was about things we had changed our mind about. Have we done that one?

 

[Slacker]

We need a word to describe those things that become so seminal, they are later made pale by imitation and constant reference. It often happens—the first slips from good to bad because of everything that comes after it. Before something becomes a cliche, it was brilliant enough to become a cliche.

Orvilled!

 

[Flip Wilson]

Completely.
I'm agruing there's not a single scene in that movie where he's the best actor in it.
The scene where he is shot, drives me up a wall. He's shot 5 times falls into the car, slides down, lurches over the bumper and hangs there for a few secomds before falling over like a stuffed deer.

Consider his acting against Fredo's reaction to the assassination attempt. There'e no comparison.

I think Coppola gave him too much freedom. How much of his stiff was ad-libbed (like AN)? I suspect a lot.


Brando's mafioso schtick is on par with Little Stephen as Silvio.

I'm not sure how much was ad-libbed, but Brando did have cue cards to read from.

 

[Small Town Guy]

Completely.
I'm agruing there's not a single scene in that movie where he's the best actor in it.

You've gotta at least give him the scene with Sonny's body. The funeral director and Duvall do nothing and Caan's a corpse!

 

[da man]

My dad used to teach a history of motion pictures class, and this is what happened with the Marx Brothers. Students thought everything was cliched and predictable but all of those cliches originated with the Marx Brothers.

YES! They weren't old jokes when Groucho was telling them.

 

[Alma]

Hemingway.

Oh, Jesus. There are eleventy billion better writers than Hemingway. He was a very good writer. He may be the most overrated writer in all of time.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Oh, Jesus. There are eleventy billion better writers than Hemingway. He was a very good writer. He may be the most overrated writer in all of time.

I don't that conflicts with me posting him as an example of an artist with many poor imitators.

 

[typefitter]

I don't that conflicts with me posting him as an example of an artist with many poor imitators.

Gary Smith.

 

[typefitter]

Oh, Jesus. There are eleventy billion better writers than Hemingway. He was a very good writer. He may be the most overrated writer in all of time.

I respectfully disagree. Part of me is ashamed by how much I subscribed to the Hemingway myth in my youth, but he wrote some incredible books, and he wrote them beautifully.

 

[Alma]

I don't that conflicts with me posting him as an example of an artist with many poor imitators.

Ah. Fair enough.

In recent years I think many more have tried to be Dave Eggers or Bret Easton Ellis (Christ, save us) or Cormac McCarthy/Toni Morrison (whose books are in some ways similar and whose books I enjoy but have produced some of the worst imitators known to mankind.) There was a Raymond Carver imitation period.

Or, you know, Tolkien. I've read a lot of Christian fantasy in recent years thrust into my hands by someone earnest. Or Rowling-esque stuff.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Ah. Fair enough.

In recent years I think many more have tried to be Dave Eggers or Bret Easton Ellis (Christ, save us) or Cormac McCarthy/Toni Morrison (whose books are in some ways similar and whose books I enjoy but have produced some of the worst imitators known to mankind.) There was a Raymond Carver imitation period.

Or, you know, Tolkien. I've read a lot of Christian fantasy in recent years thrust into my hands by someone earnest. Or Rowling-esque stuff.

Chuck Klosterman and Bill Simmons have spawned many imitators, as well.

 

[Alma]

I respectfully disagree. Part of me is ashamed by how much I subscribed to the Hemingway myth in my youth, but he wrote some incredible books, and he wrote them beautifully.

Hemingway wrote during the greatest time period to write in the last, I dunno, 500 years. He wrote during an extraordinary time in history, history's greatest heroes and villains as his backdrop, political upheaval, and the opportunity for everyday Americans to see it firsthand and there was also the means to elevate writing in a way it couldn't have been 100 or 200 years before. It amplifies his work to some degree, which is fine.

I attribute some of his popularity and adulation - which I do not begrudge him - to that. We are rightly fascinated with the age, and, as such, the key players in it.

But I'll read a couple of his again this year. On the list. It's been awhile.

 

[Alma]

Chuck Klosterman and Bill Simmons have spawned many imitators, as well.

Not like PFT Commenter has. Check every message board on the planet, or any comments section.

How does one imitate the style of Bill Simmons anyway? By rambling?

 

[typefitter]

Hemingway wrote during the greatest time period to write in the last, I dunno, 500 years. He wrote during an extraordinary time in history, history's greatest heroes and villains as his backdrop, political upheaval, and the opportunity for everyday Americans to see it firsthand and there was also the means to elevate writing in a way it couldn't have been 100 or 200 years before. It amplifies his work to some degree, which is fine.

I attribute some of his popularity and adulation - which I do not begrudge him - to that. We are rightly fascinated with the age, and, as such, the key players in it.

But I'll read a couple of his again this year. On the list. It's been awhile.

This is all true. I still think he wrote the hell out of some great books. A Farewell to Arms and For Whom the Bells Tolls both stand up for me.

 

[Songbird]

Hemingway wrote during the greatest time period to write in the last, I dunno, 500 years. He wrote during an extraordinary time in history, history's greatest heroes and villains as his backdrop, political upheaval, and the opportunity for everyday Americans to see it firsthand and there was also the means to elevate writing in a way it couldn't have been 100 or 200 years before. It amplifies his work to some degree, which is fine.

I attribute some of his popularity and adulation - which I do not begrudge him - to that. We are rightly fascinated with the age, and, as such, the key players in it.

But I'll read a couple of his again this year. On the list. It's been awhile.

You're just mad you never felt the earth move with a cropped-head Maria. Que va!

 

[DanOregon]

Hemingway wrote during the greatest time period to write in the last, I dunno, 500 years. He wrote during an extraordinary time in history, history's greatest heroes and villains as his backdrop, political upheaval, and the opportunity for everyday Americans to see it firsthand and there was also the means to elevate writing in a way it couldn't have been 100 or 200 years before. It amplifies his work to some degree, which is fine.

I attribute some of his popularity and adulation - which I do not begrudge him - to that. We are rightly fascinated with the age, and, as such, the key players in it.

But I'll read a couple of his again this year. On the list. It's been awhile.

Is there a writer since Hemingway who has been so acclaimed and popular and worked in both fiction and non-fiction as he did? It's what he wrote, when he wrote and how he wrote - and I imagine the public image he presented, that provides his enduring appeal. It also helped that he was never suspected of being a Communist.

Shoot - they still show the running of the bulls on TV?

Truth is though - I've always been more of Steinbeck/Jack London guy.

 

[Jake_Taylor]

The few times I've tried fiction it has turned out bad imitation Elmore Leonard.

 

[da man]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Brando’s portrayal of a mafia don has been the most oft-imitated (and parodied) portrayal in possibly the entire history of acting.

Bogart's cynical hard-boiled guy (Casablanca, Maltese Falcon, Big Sleep, etc.) is a contender for that title as well.