MLB Trade Deadline Thread

[BYH]

The more I look aty this Manny deal the more I think the Red Sox just made one of the worest trades in baseball history.

They gave Manny to the Dodgers...gave him away. They are now paying one of the 3 best hitters in baseball $7 million to play for someone else for the next two months.
They also gave up Hansen (eh) and Moss.
So, for Manny ****ing Ramirez, two others players and $7 million they got Jason Bay.

You gotta be ****ing kidding me!

They've also won two titles in four years and resisted many other opportunities to trade Manny. They've earned the benefit of the doubt that this trade finally had to be made, no matter how awful it looks.

 

[spnited]

The more I look aty this Manny deal the more I think the Red Sox just made one of the worest trades in baseball history.

They gave Manny to the Dodgers...gave him away. They are now paying one of the 3 best hitters in baseball $7 million to play for someone else for the next two months.
They also gave up Hansen (eh) and Moss.
So, for Manny ****ing Ramirez, two others players and $7 million they got Jason Bay.

You gotta be ****ing kidding me!

They've also won two titles in four years and resisted many other opportunities to trade Manny. They've earned the benefit of the doubt that this trade finally had to be made, no matter how awful it looks.

Wrong!
Two more months of Manny and they win the division and have a shot at the World Series. Then, don't pick up the option. Offer arbitraion. Get two draft picks when Manny signs somewhere else. You've dealt with the lunacy this long, what's 2 more months?
If you're going to pay the $7 mill over the next 2 months, you put up with the antics.

I can't wait til the last weekend of the season when the Red Sox are playing the Yankees and Jason ****ing Bay is striking out with men on base instead of Manny killing the Yanks as he always has.
And all those assholes in Red Sox Nation will be whining about how Manny would have come through where Jason ****ing Bay failed.

 

[Oz]

The more I look aty this Manny deal the more I think the Red Sox just made one of the worest trades in baseball history.

They gave Manny to the Dodgers...gave him away. They are now paying one of the 3 best hitters in baseball $7 million to play for someone else for the next two months.
They also gave up Hansen (eh) and Moss.
So, for Manny ****ing Ramirez, two others players and $7 million they got Jason Bay.

You gotta be ****ing kidding me!

They've also won two titles in four years and resisted many other opportunities to trade Manny. They've earned the benefit of the doubt that this trade finally had to be made, no matter how awful it looks.

The one complaint I would have if I were a Red Sox fan is that because of the focus on Manny, they didn't address the bullpen, which I could see costing them in October or even before then. Supposedly, there was an offer of Brandon Moss for Ron Mahay on the table. But they couldn't afford to trade Moss because if Manny were to sit after not getting traded, have sore knees, etc., he was the backup plan.

Who knows, maybe Bartolo Colon comes back as a seventh-inning man? If that's a good or bad thing, I'm not sure.

 

[Della9250]

Another interesting take on the Manny saga from Bill Madden in the Daily News today: Scott Boras orchestrated all of Manny's antics to either get out of Boston or get them so tired of him they don't exercise the options.

In short, Boras became Manny's agent like last year, so the options getting picked up don't give him a cut but the former agent. So Boras promises Manny he'll get this big 100 million dollar contract as long as he can undermind things.

And Madden points out this fact that I hadn't seen yet. Guess who Jason Bay's agent is? Boras. So the Red Sox are guaranteed Bay through 2009 and then he'll hit free agency at 31, no doubt looking for a huge deal.

 

[spnited]

Seriosuly, Oz, the bullpen doesn't mean **** when you just gave away one of the 2 or 3 best hitters of the past 20 years...GAVE HIM AWAY.

Look at it this way.. the Red Sox traded Hansen and Moss for Bay ... not a bad deal.
Oh, by the way, they GAVE Manny Ramirez to the Dodgers for NOTHING...and they are paying his salary as well.


And consider this:

Manny vs. Yankees = 55 HR, 163 RBI, .321 Ba, .411 OBP, .618 Slg, 1.029 OPS

Manny vs. Rays = 41, 143, .310, .406, .612, 1.018

The more I look at it, the worse this deal becomes.

 

[BYH]

Another interesting take on the Manny saga from Bill Madden in the Daily News today: Scott Boras orchestrated all of Manny's antics to either get out of Boston or get them so tired of him they don't exercise the options.

I wondered about that too. But Peter Gammons was saying today that it's important that Manny listen to Boras, which leads me to believe the Sox aren't sour on Boras.

And really: As arrogant as Boras is, does he REALLY think that Manny acting like this is going to help him on the open market?

Spnited: I'm not disagreeing with you re: this being a bad deal for the Sox, or how Red Sox Nation will react if Bay hacks it up during the final weekend of the year as the Sox miss the playoffs by a game. Just saying that things had to be REALLY bad if they were willing to divorce him two months before they could say goodbye with no strings attached, and that two titles in four years gives the Sox front office a bit of cache on something like this.

 

[spnited]

Two titles in four years give Red Sox management cache until Jason Bay eats **** the last weekend of the season and the Red Sox asshole fans are watching the Yankees and Rays in October and saying "we never should have let Manny go.".

 

[Oz]

And Madden points out this fact that I hadn't seen yet. Guess who Jason Bay's agent is? Boras. So the Red Sox are guaranteed Bay through 2009 and then he'll hit free agency at 31, no doubt looking for a huge deal.

Actually, Bay's agent is Joe Urbon.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2008/07/the_bay_file.html

"He signed a four-year, $18.25-million extension in November 2005, receiving a one-year signing bonus. The deal paid him $750,000 in 2006, $3.25 million in 2006, $5.75 million in 2008 and $7.5 million next season. His agent is Joe Urbon, of Octagon Baseball, who played baseball professionally in the Phillies organization and who also represents Cleveland outfielder Grady Sizemore."

And spnited, trust me, I'm with you. I just figured they would cut a side deal somewhere to shore up that bullpen, in case they happen to score fewer runs and need to win tighter games.

Bottom line, I don't think the Red Sox got any better or much worse. They're about where they were before.

 

[buckweaver]

Just saying that things had to be REALLY bad if they were willing to divorce him two months before they could say goodbye with no strings attached, and that two titles in four years gives the Sox front office a bit of cache on something like this.

And the other side of the argument is ... suck it up, Sox front office. You don't ****ing give away the best right-handed hitter you've ever had. This ain't Latrell Sprewell choking his coach-type antics here. It's bull**** that you've dealt with for years -- deal with it for two more months and then part ways.

 

[spnited]

I think the Red Sox got much, much, much worse.

And, amen, Buck .. a-****ing-men!

 

[BYH]

We can agree to disagree (first time with Bucky, 12,982,012th time with Spnited ).

But something mighty ****ty had to go down for a cautious front office to dump him two months away from a free and clean divorce.

 

[Della9250]

And Madden points out this fact that I hadn't seen yet. Guess who Jason Bay's agent is? Boras. So the Red Sox are guaranteed Bay through 2009 and then he'll hit free agency at 31, no doubt looking for a huge deal.

Actually, Bay's agent is Joe Urbon.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2008/07/the_bay_file.html

"He signed a four-year, $18.25-million extension in November 2005, receiving a one-year signing bonus. The deal paid him $750,000 in 2006, $3.25 million in 2006, $5.75 million in 2008 and $7.5 million next season. His agent is Joe Urbon, of Octagon Baseball, who played baseball professionally in the Phillies organization and who also represents Cleveland outfielder Grady Sizemore."

And spnited, trust me, I'm with you. I just figured they would cut a side deal somewhere to shore up that bullpen, in case they happen to score fewer runs and need to win tighter games.

Bottom line, I don't think the Red Sox got any better or much worse. They're about where they were before.

I stand corrected. Madden it got it wrong then -- I think he may have confused Bay and Nady, who is a Boras client.

 

[BYH]

And the other side of the argument is ... suck it up, Sox front office. You don't ****ing give away the best right-handed hitter you've ever had. This ain't Latrell Sprewell choking his coach-type antics here. It's bull**** that you've dealt with for years -- deal with it for two more months and then part ways.

He punched Kevin Youkilis (admittedly something just about everybody wants to do) and pushed the traveling secretary.

Ain't that far of a stretch to think next on the list is turning Francona's neck into a scratching post.

 

[spnited]

I think his teammates silently applauded him for punching Kevin the douchebag of walks Youkilis.

 

[Oz]

I think his teammates silently applauded him for punching Kevin the douchebag of walks Youkilis.

Second that. If anyone needed to be slapped in that dugout, it was Youkilis.

 

[buckweaver]

Bottom line, I don't think the Red Sox got any better or much worse. They're about where they were before.

I know we're going in circles here ...

Oh, I think they got worse. I understand the numbers look the same (through 7/30), I understand the "antics" argument, the clubhouse cancer (if that's even true), I understand Manny's not what he used to be and I understand Bay's not a bum.

But you CAN'T give up a Manny Ramirez -- even a disinterested, disillusioned, 36-year-old, dozen-points-below-his-career-average Manny Ramirez -- and NOT get worse. You just can't replace the best right-handed hitter of his generation -- and it's not like replacing Nomar in 2004; this guy was one of the best of all-time -- and NOT get worse.

Because no matter how good Bay is, he can't do what Manny Ramirez can do. Maybe Bay can drive in 10 runs in seven ALCS games like Manny did just last year -- but he'd have to play out of his mind to do so. Manny just has to, pardon the tired phrase, be Manny.

And now the Red Sox don't have that. Damn right they got worse.

 

[Sam Craig]

Seriosuly, Oz, the bullpen doesn't mean **** when you just gave away one of the 2 or 3 best hitters of the past 20 years...GAVE HIM AWAY.

Look at it this way.. the Red Sox traded Hansen and Moss for Bay ... not a bad deal.
Oh, by the way, they GAVE Manny Ramirez to the Dodgers for NOTHING...and they are paying his salary as well.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think it is a good deal.

Look at it this way. If the Red Sox stuck it out, they weren't going pick up the option then they still would have lost Manny for nothing. They would have had a hole in left field. So let's say that happened and they traded Hanson and Moss for Bay in the offseason, that would have been viewed as a great trade, but that trade doesn't get done without the players the Dodgers threw in.

And before anyone says the Red Sox could have made one more drive with him, you're assuming that he would have been "Good Manny'' putting up numbers. But what we've seen the past two weeks is "Bad Manny'' the selfish no-character Manny.

I've been a big supporter of Manny and defended him at times. I would have loved for him to stay the season and the next two and put up with the posing on home runs and the jogging on routine grounders. But I'm on board with the feeling that had the trade not happened, he would eventually quit at key moments and not had the chance to kill the Yankees or anyone in the postseason.

Thanks Manny for two World Series titles, but it would have been great if you respected the game as much as the fans cheered you.

 

[93Devil]

If I am the Red Sox, this is why I do not like this trade...

It's late in a close game and you have Ortiz coming up with no one on base. What do you do?

With Manny, you were very hesitant to pitch around Ortiz because you had Manny. Manny can turn around any fastball in the majors. Any.

So you pitch to Ortiz.

With Bay protecting Ortiz, I work around Ortiz. He would get nothing to hit. Anything in the strikezone would be a huge mistake. I let him sit on first and take my chances with Bay.

Can Bay hit every right handed pitcher in baseball?

Manny vs. some of the pitchers he would have faced.

Pettitte - .416
Lackey - .429
Sparks - .417
Garland - .520
Chien-Ming - .536
Buehrle - .348
CC - .571
Ponson - .421

He can hit anyone.

 

[outofplace]

Baseball's salary structure needs to be re-worked. After all, it's not fair the Marlins can land one of the best players on the planet as a mere rental. muahahhahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!

I'll still believe this when I see it.

Man... you and your understanding of finances need to take a rest.

The Marlins would get Manny for two months, and lose a burgeoning left-handed power hitter.

Awful math.

I wasn't trying to derail this--I swear--and heaven knows there's one humorless small-market chap here who is just looking for an excuse to crap all over the thread. Psst: It's not you.

My point was that it's a pretty good indicator that baseball's working pretty well when the team with the lowest payroll in the game is thinking of making a trade like this.

All that said, I will once again believe this when I see it.

Let's recap.

The Marlins reportedly killed this deal over money. They insisted on getting $9 million from the Red Sox even though Ramirez is only owed $7 million for the rest of the season.

Ramirez is instead going to the Dodgers, a large-market franchise, because the low-revenue Marlins backed out over money.

And the low-revenue Pirates unloaded yet another quality veteran for prospects.

So, if Ramirez going to the Marlins would have been proof that the system is working, what does this turn of events mean?

Please, please tell me you're kidding.

I like how outofplace scolded me for bringing this up and trying to drag the thread down...then brought this up and tried to drag the thread down mere hours later. And, as Zeke noted, brought so little to the table you have to hope he was joking.

This says nothing about the system and everything about how the Marlins are laughing all the way to the bank and making money hand over fist as they create reasons why they can't compete with the big boys. The Red Sox were willing to pick up all of what Ramirez was owed the rest of the year--AND THE DODGERS TOOK THEM UP ON THE OFFER!!!! THE BIG MARKET DODGERS!!!!--yet the Marlins WANTED MORE MONEY!!!

What the ****? That's chutzpah on an incomprehensible level. it's not good enough to get a player who can send them deep into the playoffs. They need to make AN EXTRA $2 MILLION TOO!!! THAT'S WHY TEHY BACKED OUT...THEY WERE GETTING ONE OF THE BEST PLAYERS IN THE GAME FOR FREE, from a financial standpoint, AND THEY WANTED MORE MONEY!!!

David Samson and Jeffrey Loria do not care, one whit, about winning. They want to bleed every cent they can and don't care about anything else. they would come up with reasons why the system is broken no matter where they are. if the system is broken, why are they on their second team? If the system is broken, why are they sticking around to try and land a baseball-only stadium? So they can sell this franchise for a ****pot of money in 2013, or whenever the stadium opens.

For crying out loud, even Simon Cowbell--the board's lone Marlins fan and as fervently pro-blow-the-whole-thing-up-and-start-again as anyone on the planet--recognizes the Marlins came up with an excuse as to why they couldn't handle swimming in the deep end. They're wearing those floater things and hanging on to a kickboard and they've got lifeguards surrounding them and guess what, the deep endi s actually only four feet deep...but wait, I can't swim because I don't have my nose plugs in. Let me out of the pool.

The system is just fine. It's the Marlins who are an embarrassment. Not the system.

As for your other "points."

Manny is going to the Dodgers b/c they're so cheap they asked THE INDIANS to pay for Casey Blake's contract. It is laughable on an epic scale that you think this proves the big markets bully the little markets, because the Dodgers are in about as big a market as you'll find and Frank McCourt runs them like he's auditioning for a job with Sam Zell. The system? For crying out loud.

As for the prospects the Pirates got...do you even know anything about Hansen, Moss, Tabata, McCutchen, Ohlendorf and Karstens? Maybe Rotoworld didn't have a lot on them last week. Or do you just anonymously dub them as "prospects" because it's easier to shape your argument around the thesis that the Pirates had to sell off yet again?

Except for Tabata, they're all younger players who have done just about everything they can in the minors and need to sink or swim with a team that can afford to give them some rope and/or extended playing time. Brandon Moss is going to be better than David Murphy, who might win Rookie of the Year in the AL.

It's not like they got crap. They got experienced prospects, as much of a contradiction as that sounds, who can help them right away. And in Tabata they got a guy who still has big-time upside despite his problems. And yes: I said last week I don't think Tabata will ever pan out. but for a team that has been reluctant to invest in the amateur market, this is the best way to get a potential five-tool guy.

But maybe they're going to start investing. They got nine younger players (with LaRoche and Bryan Morris from the Dodgers) for a trio of guys at or beyond their career peak. If they're going to start over again, that's a pretty good way to do it. If they're going to ditch Bay and Nady and Marte in order to sign Pedro Alvarez...good. That's what small market teams should do. Because if it blows up in their face, it still cost them less than one year of a free agent.

I would think a Pirates fan would be happy with that. Instead, you come up with reasons why it's proof the market is screwing you. With an attitude like that, you should root for the Marlins.

I am done with responding to you on this topic, because I still can't believe I spent this much time answering one of the most flawed, passive-aggressive and antagonistic posts I've ever seen. So knock yourself out.

You are right about one thing. I should not have criticized you for starting and then brought it back up later. I almost sunk to your level, but I did it without the personal insults.

Everybody had moved on, but half a day later you just had to go on the attack again. As usual, you do everything you accuse me of. Thanks for that.

Apparently my post went right over your head. Did you even read my response to Zeke? I even said it PROVES NOTHING, but you ignore the part that doesn't fit your rant -- as usual.

The bottom line is you made a ridiculous argument. You insisted that it was proof that the system is working because the Marlins were in on Manny Ramirez. Now that Ramirez went to a big-market team, you want to insist it means nothing. You just don't like getting called on it.

I know plenty about the guys in the deal yesterday (except Morris. Him I had to look up). At some point, the Pirates have to stop giving away proven players for guys who MIGHT be something. That is definitely subjective, but it is my opinion. And if you think they got good value in the deal with the Yankees, well, you are just beyond help.

But again, you are more than willing to make things up for lack of actual information. Funny that you pick on Rotoworld so much. Your standards are just as low as theirs.

I'm done, too. I doubt you can let it go. I really hope you prove me wrong this time. There's a first time for everything.

 

[Moderator1]

Trade deadline has passed anyway. But the pissing match between the two who just can't resist makes that moot. We're all done here.