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Not a theologian by any stretch, but my 2 cents on ...

Withholding communion: If you have serious sins and haven't gone to confession, you're supposed to stay in the pew or just go up for a blessing, right? Because you're not "in communion" with the Church.

Don't see how a political stance, or voting for a pro-choice candidate, amounts to a serious sin. But then, I'm a cafeteria Catholic.

Church attire: Since our church doesn't have A.C. (and it still gets stuffy inside, even here in the the Northwest), I'll wear khaki shorts and a collared shirt during the summer. Jeans are OK the rest of the year; I'd say 90 percent of the guys in our parish wear them.

As Bubbler said, as long as you're participating and taking Mass seriously, I don't think God cares if you leave the tie at home.
 
Ok, it's 1:12 a.m. my time and I am seriously drunk.
I'm so drunk I contemplated starting an 'Our new marketing overlords ask questions of drunk Buck' thread.

I was raised catholic, severe catholic. I went to a Tridentine Latin Mass for most of my youth, and we couldn't go to a Tridentine Mass we went to a Ukranian orthodox Mass because the language of the offeratory was more appropriate than the catholic Novus Ordo.

We did a rosary every week as a family in the house.

I am not a lapsed catholic. I didn't break faith with doctrine or dogma. I just don't believe in god.

All of that said, I don't get it when catholics put their own church on blast.

Women priests, married priests, gay marriage = ruses

If you believe in god and choose to worship with a group, you are subject to the rules of the group.
And the rules come from the object or idea being worshiped, allegedly.
 
To explore the idea of absolution, it requires repentance.

If you go to confession as a 10-year-old kid and tell the priest that you have cursed or shop-lifted, he should tell you to make reparation or at the very least tell you not to persist.

Let's assume that a 10-year-old is truly sorry.

He/she sincerely intends to live differently.
That's absolution.
 
Confessing sins that you know that you have no intention to stop does not absolve you.
The priest says the words, but that is not absolution. Absolution is between god and the repentant. Cursing, shop-lifting, murder, adultery - absolution requires true contrition and repentance, and true contrition and repentance entails an active desire to make right wrongs done and to no longer persist inn sinful actions.

Al Capone might have confessed to his priest. His priest might have spoken the words of absolution. However, if Al Capone was not contrite and repentant in his confession god did not absolve him.
 
I am really drunk, so I'm going to keep going. Maybe it's been a long time since I've embarrassed myself.

There are distinctions between dogma, canon law and doctrine.
Gayness and abortion = canon law
Both speak to the new hot topic of Onanism, but despite that level of coolness canon law is a difficult, almost impossible hurdle.

Honestly, if you support abortion or gay marriage you should seriously consider a new church. Rome will not change its stance in our lifetime, and maybe not even within the next lifetime.
 
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I know plenty of folks who have predictable personality changes when they're drunk (me included).

I would have never predicted Buck turns into a theologian. :D
 
I really don't know you people, but you are some of the best with whom I have ever associated.
 
OK, last week at mass, a small group of our youth started clapping during the Gloria. Didn't think much of it because they had just come back from a youth conference and were just having fun.

Flash forward to today. We start singing the Gloria and what happens next? More damn clapping. Mostly by the same damn kids, but this time they're joined by some adults. And the adults weren't totally into it, but they were doing it because they were thinking they had to do it. In all, I'd say less than a quarter of the attendees were clapping, but it was more than the week before.

I'm already dreading next week, thinking more people will start clapping next week. If that's the case, what should my next move be? I'm thinking about doing cartwheels up and down the aisle. Thoughts?
 
Catholic for roughly 28 years then went atheist. YET...I still have unsettled business with the church.

I hate the stance on abortion, kiddie fiddling and general asshatery puked from the pulpit, but it breaks my heart when I have to hear stories from older relatives or friends about how this or that long-standing church is being closed. Even in my jaded state about religion, I still understand the need for community and those traditional ties to the old country that the church provided. The former parishioners don't get all weepy and go into depression because they have to find somewhere else to go. No, it's more about a loss of identity and relationships built around the place.

And the stories about crooked priests these days makes my blood boil. At the church my mom and dad attend, there's some Russian priest who does all sorts of shady **** with money - including allegedly selling indulgences (yes, that's right.) Heard about some other local priest (also from Eastern Europe) this week who owns a Lexus and a very expensive SUV along with some major real estate in Florida. He's presiding over a cluster of parish closings because of financial reasons. Funny thing is the parishes' finances were allegedly in good shape before he arrived two years earlier.
 
Didn't want to put this in the Religion thread, because there's a lot of newsworthy stuff happening in other denominations this week, so I dug this thread up.

Pretty good, in-depth AP story about how the Catholic Church (capital C) in America is getting more and more conservative.

Any Catholics who have attended Mass in the past 5 to 10 years know this is true, with everything from cassock-wearing priests to more Latin phrases, from people kneeling for Communion to a whole lotta incense being spread around.

This story does a good job of highlighting how the young people who haven't become lapsed Catholics are pushing both worship rituals and politics in an ultra-conservative direction, as the Vatican II generation ages and dies off.

https://apnews.com/article/catholic...xy-tradition-7638fa2013a593f8cb07483ffc8ed487
 
I didn’t fall off the Catholic wagon, I walked away more than 35 years ago and haven’t had any inclination to go back. From a young age, I found the whole thing reeked of bull****. I was an alter boy in eighth grade — no diddling — and that just reinforced my belief there is no god, no grand design, no heaven or hell.

So, for all those reasons, I don’t give a **** what happens to the Catholic Church.
 
I've mentioned it before - but separating the faith from "the Church" is what has actually helped me. I look around mass, see fewer and fewer women, and yeah, the kneeling thing at communion? I even see young people keeping the kneeler up and kneeling on the floor. Crazy. But whatever works for you. I've found it interesting how many converts have come from non-denominational and evangelical Christian faiths. I don't know if its the authoritarian nature of the Church, particularly in America - or what.
 
Didn't want to put this in the Religion thread, because there's a lot of newsworthy stuff happening in other denominations this week, so I dug this thread up.

Pretty good, in-depth AP story about how the Catholic Church (capital C) in America is getting more and more conservative.

Any Catholics who have attended Mass in the past 5 to 10 years know this is true, with everything from cassock-wearing priests to more Latin phrases, from people kneeling for Communion to a whole lotta incense being spread around.

This story does a good job of highlighting how the young people who haven't become lapsed Catholics are pushing both worship rituals and politics in an ultra-conservative direction, as the Vatican II generation ages and dies off.

https://apnews.com/article/catholic...xy-tradition-7638fa2013a593f8cb07483ffc8ed487

That was an excellent, thought-provoking article. I'm glad I read it, and am trying to parse my thoughts about it.

I do so as not so much a fallen-away Catholic, but one who wandered away from that church over time and into a non-denominational one. It didn't happen because of any big break from beliefs but as a result of a lack of interest, for lack of a better way of putting it, and a disconnection that occurred just as time went on, and life happened.

I was born into and grew up as a practicing Catholic, getting baptized (urgently, as an infant, because I was near death after a very premature birth, and then again, as a toddler in a more family-oriented, traditional ceremony), and then receiving First Communion, and going through Confirmation. I was active in the church as a teen -- a regular participant in large youth groups, and was an active, core member of the choir. Some of my best friends also were part of all this, especially the musical group, and we were all very serious about our faith. It was part and parcel of who we were. Two of the young men in my close circle were attending seminary school; I, briefly, actually gave a little thought to becoming a nun, and at one time, my brothers might not have been surprised if that happened. And it wasn't unusual for my friends and I to include prayer and gospel/hymn-related music in all of our frequent gatherings and activities, both in organized church-related events and just as regular friends on our own, outside of church. Discussions about church and God were common. It was a real, meaningful, even fun and inspiring "thing" to us.

But then, our little group began attending different schools -- there was a few-years-wide age gap among our core group (not large, but enough to put us in different places after a while) -- and then, one of our friends, shockingly, committed suicide (I think I've posted a little bit about that), and frankly, our little group never quite recovered from that, I don't think. We didn't break up, either with the church or with each other, so much as just wander off our own ways.

I went to college, got absorbed in journalism and newspapers, and we all lost contact for a long time, until those of us who remain began finding each other again years later, first through social media, and then, again, through life events that put us in touch because, even after so long, we still thought of each other often, felt like we still knew each other, and we still cared about each other. We don't see or hear from each other a lot nowadays, but I'm glad to know where they are, and that we can get together if/when we want. They are still the friends I think of, whenever I think of the really good friends in my life.

So, the Catholic Church was/is not all bad as far as I'm concerned.

But I'm in a non-denominational, Evangelical-leaning church now that re-fired my spiritual interest and growth around the time of another baptism, this time of my own free will, and as a more aware and knowledgeable adult in 2011 after some years away from church.

I never lost my belief in God, though, and that, I think, has been key for me. It brought me back to active church when I was ready.

What I wonder is, is every church -- not just the Catholic one -- becoming more conservative, or not? I'd have to say that I don't think so. The Catholic church's ideas on homosexuality and the place/role of women are hardly exclusive to it. I can see and understand that even in my own church, and abortion, while permitted in it, is not exactly fully supported, either.

The key part of the article, I think, was this: In 1970, more than half of America's Catholics said they went to Mass at least once a week. By 2022, that had fallen to 17 percent...Among millennials, that number is just 9 percent."

What I think is happening is that not just Catholic ones but all churches, are becoming less of a focus, and of less importance for many, many people in this country. Direction, and faith in general, is being lost, as a result of increased liberalism in society overall, coupled with the country's recent increased partisan-ism and divisiveness. In almost any church's view, the lines and definitions of morality are being confronted, blurred and changed, and churches in general -- not just Catholic ones -- are being shaken, and in many cases, shrunk in terms of attendance. As a result of a lot of monumental conflict and change, people just aren't going to church as much as they once did, and that trend was exacerbated by three years of dealing with COVID.

It's all making it so that any church is practically an endangered entity, and so that what will be left, after all is said and done, is likely to be tantamount to extremism, whatever the denominations.
 
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I was so lucky as a kid to have a pastor who "went long" if he was at 50 minutes for mass. I've grudgingly accepted an hour now, though whatever public speaking classes they take in the seminary when it comes to formulating homilies need to be improved. Another priest I had growing up, who is REALLY REALLY good, and whose homilies never seem long winded no matter how long he goes, holds himself to a five minute limit in Lent.

It’s the damn replays and commercials.
 
That was an excellent, thought-provoking article. I'm glad I read it, and am trying to parse my thoughts about it.

I do so as not so much a fallen-away Catholic, but one who wandered away from that church over time and into a non-denominational one. It didn't happen because of any big break from beliefs but as a result of a lack of interest, for lack of a better way of putting it, and a disconnection that occurred just as time went on, and life happened.

I was born into and grew up as a practicing Catholic, getting baptized (urgently, as an infant, because I was near death after a very premature birth, and then again, as a toddler in a more family-oriented, traditional ceremony), and then receiving First Communion, and going through Confirmation. I was active in the church as a teen -- a regular participant in large youth groups, and was an active, core member of the choir. Some of my best friends also were part of all this, especially the musical group, and we were all very serious about our faith. It was part and parcel of who we were. Two of the young men in my close circle were attending seminary school; I, briefly, actually gave a little thought to becoming a nun, and at one time, my brothers might not have been surprised if that happened. And it wasn't unusual for my friends and I to include prayer and gospel/hymn-related music in all of our frequent gatherings and activities, both in organized church-related events and just as regular friends on our own, outside of church. Discussions about church and God were common. It was a real, meaningful, even fun and inspiring "thing" to us.

But then, our little group began attending different schools -- there was a few-years-wide age gap among our core group (not large, but enough to put us in different places after a while) -- and then, one of our friends, shockingly, committed suicide (I think I've posted a little bit about that), and frankly, our little group never quite recovered from that, I don't think. We didn't break up, either with the church or with each other, so much as just wander off our own ways.

I went to college, got absorbed in journalism and newspapers, and we all lost contact for a long time, until those of us who remain began finding each other again years later, first through social media, and then, again, through life events that put us in touch because, even after so long, we still thought of each other often, felt like we still knew each other, and we still cared about each other. We don't see or hear from each other a lot nowadays, but I'm glad to know where they are, and that we can get together if/when we want. They are still the friends I think of, whenever I think of the really good friends in my life.

So, the Catholic Church was/is not all bad as far as I'm concerned.

But I'm in a non-denominational, Evangelical-leaning church now that re-fired my spiritual interest and growth around the time of another baptism, this time of my own free will, and as a more aware and knowledgeable adult in 2011 after some years away from church.

I never lost my belief in God, though, and that, I think, has been key for me. It brought me back to active church when I was ready.

What I wonder is, is every church -- not just the Catholic one -- becoming more conservative, or not? I'd have to say that I don't think so. The Catholic church's ideas on homosexuality and the place/role of women are hardly exclusive to it. I can see and understand that even in my own church, and abortion, while permitted in it, is not exactly fully supported, either.

The key part of the article, I think, was this: In 1970, more than half of America's Catholics said they went to Mass at least once a week. By 2022, that had fallen to 17 percent...Among millennials, that number is just 9 percent."

What I think is happening is that not just Catholic ones but all churches, are becoming less of a focus, and of less importance for many, many people in this country. Direction, and faith in general, is being lost, as a result of increased liberalism in society overall, coupled with the country's recent increased partisan-ism and divisiveness. In almost any church's view, the lines and definitions of morality are being confronted, blurred and changed, and churches in general -- not just Catholic ones -- are being shaken, and in many cases, shrunk in terms of attendance. As a result of a lot of monumental conflict and change, people just aren't going to church as much as they once did, and that trend was exacerbated by three years of dealing with COVID.

It's all making it so that any church is practically an endangered entity, and so that what will be left, after all is said and done, is likely to be tantamount to extremism, whatever the denominations.
This is a very thoughtful and thorough reply, WT -- thanks for sharing it.

I see similarities in what's happened to the Catholic Church in America as what's happened politically. The "big tent" approach of both the Democratic and Republican parties has faded away just like it has with many religions.

Reading the AP article, here's what struck me about the conservative college students who are trying to be more Catholic than the pope: There is an entire college of them.

When I went to a large public university 30 years ago (!!), several denominations had student worship services or centers. For Catholics, it was the Newman Center, and you could be as involved as you wanted to be -- from occasionally attending Mass there to getting involved with multiple ministries, groups and outreach programs. The levels of involvement and intensity varied -- much like a regular Catholic parish. This one just happened to consist almost entirely of young adults.

But when you get an entire Midwestern college campus where EVERYONE is a hard-core, rigidly conservative Catholic, you're closing yourself off to other views and ways of worship/living. It's like the social media feedback loop that leads to extreme polarization in U.S. politics. As you wrote, when all is said and done, you have a bunch of extremism in various splinter groups rather than a larger body of diverse people (backgrounds, opinions, lifestyles) working together to be, as one priest used to call it, the hands and feet of Christ.
 

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