Tiger Woods Return

[qtlaw]

He may not have been able to replicate that '97 swing but that 2000 swing? That was a thing of beauty. Why he chose to change that was befuddling. The Foley swing? U-G-L-Y.

For as great an athlete that Tiger was/is supposedly, you'd think he could come up with something other than that flat, spin-out swing he's got now. Something more athletic, like say even Stricker. Hell, look at Phil, he's 41 and his swing is still pretty (oh yeah, and he's with what's his name, coincidence?)

Would either of them trade their careers with Tigers?

They're both much happier people at this point. Worked out in the long run.

which has nothing to do with golf and their swings.

I was just talking about their swings, not their lives.

and one of those mans swings and the changes he's made over the years has produced 14 majors. I think Woods should be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to tinkering with his swing. His short game and mental toughness which were his biggest advantages are dreadful, he can't make a putt.

He changed to Foley after he won the 14, after Yang knocked him down, and more importantly after the Nov. '09 disaster.

 

[JC]

He may not have been able to replicate that '97 swing but that 2000 swing? That was a thing of beauty. Why he chose to change that was befuddling. The Foley swing? U-G-L-Y.

For as great an athlete that Tiger was/is supposedly, you'd think he could come up with something other than that flat, spin-out swing he's got now. Something more athletic, like say even Stricker. Hell, look at Phil, he's 41 and his swing is still pretty (oh yeah, and he's with what's his name, coincidence?)

Would either of them trade their careers with Tigers?

They're both much happier people at this point. Worked out in the long run.

which has nothing to do with golf and their swings.

I was just talking about their swings, not their lives.

and one of those mans swings and the changes he's made over the years has produced 14 majors. I think Woods should be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to tinkering with his swing. His short game and mental toughness which were his biggest advantages are dreadful, he can't make a putt.

He changed to Foley after he won the 14, after Yang knocked him down, and more importantly after the Nov. '09 disaster.

Which, given his history he may have done anyway.

 

[qtlaw]

I was not criticizing changing per se. I was really criticizing the apparent result of the Foley changes. Its just ugly, especially contrasted with his Harmon swing. Sure he sprayed it around even in 2000 but he was hitting lasers the majority of the time, along with the hard to fathom putting.

I'm just saying you'd think even with changes he'd come out with something better than what we see now.

 

[Sam Mills 51]

Wasn't a lot of the swing issues the fact that he was putting an extraordinary amount of pressure on his left knee? The same one that has been whittled on more than once?

I'm a big believer in not fixing something that wasn't broken, but while the swing wasn't broken, it was breaking Tiger Woods.

 

[JC]

I was not criticizing changing per se. I was really criticizing the apparent result of the Foley changes. Its just ugly, especially contrasted with his Harmon swing. Sure he sprayed it around even in 2000 but he was hitting lasers the majority of the time, along with the hard to fathom putting.

I'm just saying you'd think even with changes he'd come out with something better than what we see now.

I'm not sure though that with everything that has happened to him, injury , mental what have you that he was going to have success with any swing. He can't putt anymore, and his short game has left him. Not sure how much of that is swing related.

 

[Michael_ Gee]

My middle brother is an avid amateur golfer. About 20 years ago, he was down to a 5-6 handicap. He was then injured in an automobile accident, hurt hisneck, hurt a knee. He had to completely replace his golf swing with a new, different one. It took him over five years, once he was healthy enough to play again, to get the handicap back down to single-digits. What Woods is trying to do is very hard. It would be very hard even if he wasn't obviously a mental wreck. It might be impossible, given the latter handicap.
A golfer who's at war with his swing is going to let that screw up the rest of his game, too. You can't separate the pieces that easily.

 

[TwoGloves]

At times, he looked like he had no clue where the ball was going to go. I think that's one of the reasons Ian Baker-Finch quit: He was worried he was going to kill somebody because he had no idea where his shots would end up.

 

[YankeeFan]

So, I'll ask it again. Does anyone think he's on the verge of becoming Willie Mays on the Mets?

Could it get that bad? In the near future?

 

[jr/shotglass]

The more likely scenario, to me, is that he walks away for an extended period, goes into seclusion. I've been thinking about that the past day or so. I could definitely see that, because being the weak figure has got to just tear him apart after years and years of success.

 

[ShiptoShore]

I was not criticizing changing per se. I was really criticizing the apparent result of the Foley changes. Its just ugly, especially contrasted with his Harmon swing. Sure he sprayed it around even in 2000 but he was hitting lasers the majority of the time, along with the hard to fathom putting.

I'm just saying you'd think even with changes he'd come out with something better than what we see now.

I'm not sure though that with everything that has happened to him, injury , mental what have you that he was going to have success with any swing. He can't putt anymore, and his short game has left him. Not sure how much of that is swing related.

Agreed.

He won a ****-ton of big tournaments by making ridiculous putts and being automatic on anything within 6-12 feet. All he had to do was get in position for a long birdie putt, and he almost always made it. He's now three-putting from that same spot on the green.

 

[TwoGloves]

So, I'll ask it again. Does anyone think he's on the verge of becoming Willie Mays on the Mets?

Could it get that bad? In the near future?

I'm not willing to say that yet. He's still fairly young in golf but his knee is fairly old. Will be interesting to see what happens, no doubt.

 

[bydesign77]

I've always said his swing was too hard, too fast. He was trying to squeeze every yard he could and didn't need to.

 

[Small Town Guy]

I'm late to this way of thinking, but I'm beginning to believe he may never get it back.

That's how I feel, too. I was adamant that he would be back...it's actually sort of shocking to me. Not just his play, but everything in his universe seems to have gone to ****. I don't know that he can recover.

We welcome you with open arms into our camp. Our numbers are small, but our conviction is as strong and swift as Elin swinging a 9-iron to the back of a Escalade window.

DD,
I think you're underestimating your camp's numbers a bit. This sounds a bit like someone saying they think The Wire is the greatest show in history and someone adding, "Welcome to our camp, our numbers are small, but..."

I think a straw poll of just people on SJ would probably have a lot more people in the "He's done" camp than those who don't believe that. And I think many, maybe a majority, of golf fans would probably think the same.

Is there anyone else here who would be willing to write 1,500 words right now about how Tiger's *not* finished and will still break Jack's record, other than me?

So let me say, to those folks who would write those words: Welcome to our camp. With your membership to our club, you receive a $50 gift certificate to Perkins, a complementary DVD of every high five between Stev(i)e and Tiger, a DVD of every Tiger press conference, prior to the 2010 Masters, a signed copy of Charlie Pierce's Esquire story, exclusive online access to a 2002 Biofile with Tiger, one free plasma therapy session with Dr. Galea, a chunk of the boulder fans in Phoenix moved for him, Stephen Ames' testicles, and Tiger's torn ACL from 2008.

 

[JC]

I've always said his swing was too hard, too fast. He was trying to squeeze every yard he could and didn't need to.

He probably should have listened to you he may have won a couple of majors or some tournaments along the way.

 

[bydesign77]

What I meant was that I knew the swing and his game would never hold up.
I can't do it as consistently, but I can hit the ball nearly as far as he does (when I was playing regularly, at least) and my swing speed wasn't close to being as fast as his.

It wasn't built for longevity.

 

[Double Down]

I'm late to this way of thinking, but I'm beginning to believe he may never get it back.

That's how I feel, too. I was adamant that he would be back...it's actually sort of shocking to me. Not just his play, but everything in his universe seems to have gone to ****. I don't know that he can recover.

We welcome you with open arms into our camp. Our numbers are small, but our conviction is as strong and swift as Elin swinging a 9-iron to the back of a Escalade window.

DD,
I think you're underestimating your camp's numbers a bit. This sounds a bit like someone saying they think The Wire is the greatest show in history and someone adding, "Welcome to our camp, our numbers are small, but..."

I think a straw poll of just people on SJ would probably have a lot more people in the "He's done" camp than those who don't believe that. And I think many, maybe a majority, of golf fans would probably think the same.

Is there anyone else here who would be willing to write 1,500 words right now about how Tiger's *not* finished and will still break Jack's record, other than me?

You know you're my on-line brother, STG, but I completely disagree with this. I think the "Tiger will find it again and be awesome!!!!" camp is still BY FAR the majority opinion, yet they seem to believe they're defying conventional wisdom and fighting off the legions of haters. Someone brought this up on Poz's blog the other day, and I absolutely think it's true. Tiger has LEGIONS of defenders in the media, golf or other. We were just talking the other day here about SI's Tour Confidential stuff before Firestone where Hack and Shipnuck and others were suggesting he could win this week. And when he opened with that 68, we had Chef predicting ON THIS THREAD he was going to win Firestone.

Prior to this week, the people saying "he's done, and he'll never get it back" were definitely, DEFINITELY in the minority. Especially in the golf media, where every single birdie is greeted with "HE'S BACK!" Feherty and Scott Van Pelt may be his two biggest homers, but the are hardly alone.

 

[Lugnuts]

There was a third camp, where I was. We thought he could get to a point of just regular-good. A tour stop victory here, one more major there... But falling short of Jack.

I still think that's possible... But it's not like I'm rooting for it.

 

[jr/shotglass]

Not even getting into that end of it.

 

[Small Town Guy]

Oh yeah, DD, I know this is a subject we've gone back and forth on over the last year. And since it's golf and a 60-year-old can still contend for a major, we could be having this discussion when Tiger is 58 and still stuck on 14.

"He finished T3 at the Masters last year," I'll write. "He gets his putting going with the belly-putter, he can still get five more majors. I really believe this."

I agree with you on the golf media but part of that might be wishful thinking on their part, especially for TV folks, because if Tiger and Phil are fading out of the picture they see a future of Dufner and Irishmen contending in every major. I'm not sure they really believe it or they're just stoking "He's back" fires to keep people interested. I, on the other hand, actually believe it - I'm like Bachmann; I really believe my crazy talk.

I would say - and I think I've said this on either this thread or other Tiger ones; I have to regurgitate my arguments because there hasn't exactly been compelling new evidence from Woods to support my arguments - that, online at least, the "He's back" beliefs after every birdie are more than offset by the "he's done!" statements you see after every hook or every bogey from him. Follow along with an ESPN golfcast, the new one or when it was Sobel, or on Golf.com and you'll want to stab your eyes out to keep from rolling them every 5 seconds. Two straight birdies and it's "Look out, field!" A bogey or a horrific drive and it's questions about if he can ever recover, he'll never catch Jack, he'll never win another major, etc.

Or just on this thread you had Ian Baker-Finch references and of course comparisons to relatives who have had similar injuries. And it's like, no offense to Ian or Michael's brother, but they ain't Tiger.

With the SI guys, I haven't read the confidential the last few weeks but before that Shipnuck, Hack and some of the others were pretty pessimistic about Woods' chances anywhere in the near future.

Other topics:
* The swing changes, he's said several times injuries were a big reason for them. He said it when he went with Haney from Harmon.

* Jack had the same swing for 50 years. Which is great. Then again, he didn't win 14 majors by the age of 33 with three different swings. Maybe he should have been tinkering...

* The mental aspect. Maybe he is a shattered soul inside. Maybe he confesses to his shrink every day that he doesn't believe he can win and he's taken down his poster listing Jack's major victories. I don't know, and unless Nixon breaks into his psychiatrist's office to steal the records, I don't think anyone else does either. Yeah, we can speculate that mentally he's obviously lost a lot of his edge because of the scandal and, now, the two years of little success. But can we predict that it remains like that forever? Maybe he meets a nice girl, proposes to her on safari in South Africa, is again a content family guy with gals on the side. Who knows.

* The knees are a big thing, obviously. Could be his demise.

* And the numbers I've cited before (again, regurgitating my old numbers): He's now played in 10 majors without winning one. It seems absurd and that he's completely off his game and why the hell did he change his swing and he doesn't have a clue and this would never happen to Jack. But, this is the third time now he's gone 10 majors without a victory. 1997 Masters, then no victories until 1999 PGA. 2002 U.S. Open and no victories until 2005 Masters. Both times it was during swing changes. As is the third time.

There's the added scandal and another knee injury - or two - thrown in. But we have seen this before, even if the +11 is something new. And during those other droughts, he really wasn't competing for majors.

In the 10 majors he didn't win between '97 and 99, he had five Top 10 finishes. In the 02-05 drought, three Top 10s. In this one? Six. So in that regard, he's actually been better during this dry spell. He did miss a pair of cuts, which didn't happen in the other ones. But even the last disastrous two years, when it seems like he's occasionally the worst golfer in the world, he had three T4s in majors. That's not exactly Ian Baker-Finch territory and I'm pretty sure Michael's brother didn't have any Top 10s during that stretch either.

So now we'll see what happens at the 11th major. Both times before, that's when he won. And both times, it's when the swing changes clicked and he started dominating - winning 7 of 11 with the Butch swing, winning six of 14 with the Haney swing.

And the other number: if he wins one of the next 10 majors, he's still ahead of Jack's pace.

If he goes through all of 2012 without a victory in a major, I'll start calling about rental prices in the He's Done camp and I hope I'll be accepted. But we really have seen this story before - Tiger looking hapless, not winning majors, etc, even if there's the added treats of sex addiction and ACLs. And we've seen how the story changed. If it's happened twice before, I don't think it's delusional or being a homer to think it could happen again.

Now, what kind of dental plan do you offer in the He's Done camp...

 

[qtlaw]

Think about that "7 of 11 [majors]", that is amazing, something that sets him apart from Jack (and every other golfer ever.)