Saudi gang-rape victim is whipped and jailed

[JR]

The Presbyterian side on my family won the cookies.

 

[writing irish]

Actually going to Ireland, finally, cured me of any lingering sectarianism. At some point you have to say history be damned, humanity (in Ireland or elsewhere) will either live in brotherhood or die as enemies.

 

[Lyman_Bostock]

We're journalists. We're supposed to cut through the bull**** and get to the point.

If you're a journalist, I'm the King of Canada.

All hail king JR! (Of course, I left off the three-letter syllable before "king" that begins with "F ...")

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

I think that when the U.S. stops leading most of the world in executions, you can chirp all you want about other countries' legal systems.

You know what... these American child-murdering mongrels need to be released into Canada, since you have such a problem killing them.

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

Easy solution to the whole problem (and I mean Mideast-West relations): pull out all U.S. interests in the entire region, Israel included. If they want to multilate their women, repeal constitutions and bomb each other into oblivion, so be it. In a few years, there should be the means to survive almost oil-free.

Yeah, there's an idea.

I can't wait to visit Tel Aviv after we pull all our support.

Come on, man. ****'s WAY more complicated than that.

Our unfettered support of Israel is the single reason we have been targeted in any terrorist attack.

It is virtually that simple.

 

[deskslave]

What I've never understood about the death penalty debate is why someone doesn't mount an organized campaign to reach out to conservatives and point out how much money we waste on trying to execute people. Yeah, yeah, I know, it costs $52 a day or whatever to keep someone in prison. But it costs many millions more to get through the entire appeals process.

In Georgia, for example, the state has already spent more than $2M just to pay for the defense of Brian Nichols, who may be the guiltiest person in the history of the criminal justice system. There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he's guilty, but because the state insists on trying to execute him, it's going to spend millions prosecuting him and millions more defending him!

(In other words, assuming it costs $50 a day to incarcerate someone -- which it probably doesn't, but it's a nice round figure -- Georgia has spent the cost of keeping Nichols in prison for the next 109 years.)

And the answer is not, by the way, "streamline the appeals process." We should never "streamline" someone out of having a chance to prove their innocence when their life is at stake. Indeed, my only concern with eliminating the death penalty is it may well eliminate some of the urgency for cases of wrongful conviction. There's a lot more incentive to prove someone's innocent when they've got a date with the needle.

Then there's the fact that we stand virtually alone among civilized nations in continuing to execute people, and that our continuing to use this process puts us in the company of the Saudi Arabias, Irans and Chinas of the world. But as death penalty advocates don't care about that, I say stick with the money angle.

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

There is a huge gap between violently punishing the victim of a rape and having the death penalty for actual criminals.

No, actually the death penalty is worse because there's this nasty little thing called executing innocent victims


I was merely responding to one of Abbot's usual anti-Muslim threads. You know, glass houses and all that.

And then of course, Lyman jumps in accusing me of anti-Americanism and goes on about "installing a democracy in Saudi Arabia"--proving my point about one's own backyard.

And then people show up advocating the invasion of Saudi Arabia.

Yup, all the big brains at work on this thread.

You take innocent Jeffrey Dahmer.... and here's John Wayne Gacy... Here's Lee Malvo ... keep 'em in YOUR house.

 

[deskslave]

There is a huge gap between violently punishing the victim of a rape and having the death penalty for actual criminals.

No, actually the death penalty is worse because there's this nasty little thing called executing innocent victims


I was merely responding to one of Abbot's usual anti-Muslim threads. You know, glass houses and all that.

And then of course, Lyman jumps in accusing me of anti-Americanism and goes on about "installing a democracy in Saudi Arabia"--proving my point about one's own backyard.

And then people show up advocating the invasion of Saudi Arabia.

Yup, all the big brains at work on this thread.

You take innocent Jeffrey Dahmer.... and here's John Wayne Gacy... Here's Lee Malvo ... keep 'em in YOUR house.

The guilt of some doesn't justify the possibility of executing the innocent.

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

What I've never understood about the death penalty debate is why someone doesn't mount an organized campaign to reach out to conservatives and point out how much money we waste on trying to execute people. Yeah, yeah, I know, it costs $52 a day or whatever to keep someone in prison. But it costs many millions more to get through the entire appeals process.

In Georgia, for example, the state has already spent more than $2M just to pay for the defense of Brian Nichols, who may be the guiltiest person in the history of the criminal justice system. There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he's guilty, but because the state insists on trying to execute him, it's going to spend millions prosecuting him and millions more defending him!

(In other words, assuming it costs $50 a day to incarcerate someone -- which it probably doesn't, but it's a nice round figure -- Georgia has spent the cost of keeping Nichols in prison for the next 109 years.)

And the answer is not, by the way, "streamline the appeals process." We should never "streamline" someone out of having a chance to prove their innocence when their life is at stake. Indeed, my only concern with eliminating the death penalty is it may well eliminate some of the urgency for cases of wrongful conviction. There's a lot more incentive to prove someone's innocent when they've got a date with the needle.

Then there's the fact that we stand virtually alone among civilized nations in continuing to execute people, and that our continuing to use this process puts us in the company of the Saudi Arabias, Irans and Chinas of the world. But as death penalty advocates don't care about that, I say stick with the money angle.

I am actually against the death penalty as it exists now (a pleasant journey into a permanent sleep).

I am pro-torture penalty.

This giving them a lobster dinner, a platform to read a manifesto and then letting them painlessly pass out... AFTER the money spent on appeals. ...

I am not for the death penalty anymore.

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

There is a huge gap between violently punishing the victim of a rape and having the death penalty for actual criminals.

No, actually the death penalty is worse because there's this nasty little thing called executing innocent victims


I was merely responding to one of Abbot's usual anti-Muslim threads. You know, glass houses and all that.

And then of course, Lyman jumps in accusing me of anti-Americanism and goes on about "installing a democracy in Saudi Arabia"--proving my point about one's own backyard.

And then people show up advocating the invasion of Saudi Arabia.

Yup, all the big brains at work on this thread.

You take innocent Jeffrey Dahmer.... and here's John Wayne Gacy... Here's Lee Malvo ... keep 'em in YOUR house.

The guilt of some doesn't justify the possibility of executing the innocent.

I'm gonna trust the DNA science of today and take my chances.

Executing innocent people is so yesterday.

 

[deskslave]

What I've never understood about the death penalty debate is why someone doesn't mount an organized campaign to reach out to conservatives and point out how much money we waste on trying to execute people. Yeah, yeah, I know, it costs $52 a day or whatever to keep someone in prison. But it costs many millions more to get through the entire appeals process.

In Georgia, for example, the state has already spent more than $2M just to pay for the defense of Brian Nichols, who may be the guiltiest person in the history of the criminal justice system. There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he's guilty, but because the state insists on trying to execute him, it's going to spend millions prosecuting him and millions more defending him!

(In other words, assuming it costs $50 a day to incarcerate someone -- which it probably doesn't, but it's a nice round figure -- Georgia has spent the cost of keeping Nichols in prison for the next 109 years.)

And the answer is not, by the way, "streamline the appeals process." We should never "streamline" someone out of having a chance to prove their innocence when their life is at stake. Indeed, my only concern with eliminating the death penalty is it may well eliminate some of the urgency for cases of wrongful conviction. There's a lot more incentive to prove someone's innocent when they've got a date with the needle.

Then there's the fact that we stand virtually alone among civilized nations in continuing to execute people, and that our continuing to use this process puts us in the company of the Saudi Arabias, Irans and Chinas of the world. But as death penalty advocates don't care about that, I say stick with the money angle.

I am actually against the death penalty as it exists now (a pleasant journey into a permanent sleep).

I am pro-torture penalty.

This giving them a lobster dinner, a platform to read a manifesto and then letting them painlessly pass out... AFTER the money spent on appeals. ...

I am not for the death penalty anymore.

And you're serious. Which is sad.

 

[zeke12]

Easy solution to the whole problem (and I mean Mideast-West relations): pull out all U.S. interests in the entire region, Israel included. If they want to multilate their women, repeal constitutions and bomb each other into oblivion, so be it. In a few years, there should be the means to survive almost oil-free.

Yeah, there's an idea.

I can't wait to visit Tel Aviv after we pull all our support.

Come on, man. ****'s WAY more complicated than that.

Our unfettered support of Israel is the single reason we have been targeted in any terrorist attack.

It is virtually that simple.

You're a really, really stupid man.

 

[deskslave]

There is a huge gap between violently punishing the victim of a rape and having the death penalty for actual criminals.

No, actually the death penalty is worse because there's this nasty little thing called executing innocent victims


I was merely responding to one of Abbot's usual anti-Muslim threads. You know, glass houses and all that.

And then of course, Lyman jumps in accusing me of anti-Americanism and goes on about "installing a democracy in Saudi Arabia"--proving my point about one's own backyard.

And then people show up advocating the invasion of Saudi Arabia.

Yup, all the big brains at work on this thread.

You take innocent Jeffrey Dahmer.... and here's John Wayne Gacy... Here's Lee Malvo ... keep 'em in YOUR house.

The guilt of some doesn't justify the possibility of executing the innocent.

I'm gonna trust the DNA science of today and take my chances.

Executing innocent people is so yesterday.

That's good. Because there's no one left on death row for whom there is no DNA evidence available. Because DNA is the only foundation on which our legal system is built. Because there's DNA evidence in every single case.

 

[Lyman_Bostock]

Easy solution to the whole problem (and I mean Mideast-West relations): pull out all U.S. interests in the entire region, Israel included. If they want to multilate their women, repeal constitutions and bomb each other into oblivion, so be it. In a few years, there should be the means to survive almost oil-free.

Yeah, there's an idea.

I can't wait to visit Tel Aviv after we pull all our support.

Come on, man. ****'s WAY more complicated than that.

Our unfettered support of Israel is the single reason we have been targeted in any terrorist attack.

It is virtually that simple.

You're a really, really stupid man.

Zeke and I respectfully disagree on almost everything, but not on this. Even if you are pro-death penalty.

 

[User 1019]

Easy solution to the whole problem (and I mean Mideast-West relations): pull out all U.S. interests in the entire region, Israel included. If they want to multilate their women, repeal constitutions and bomb each other into oblivion, so be it. In a few years, there should be the means to survive almost oil-free.

Yeah, there's an idea.

I can't wait to visit Tel Aviv after we pull all our support.

Come on, man. ****'s WAY more complicated than that.

Our unfettered support of Israel is the single reason we have been targeted in any terrorist attack.

It is virtually that simple.

I'm sorry, but I think this is incorrect.

OBL targeted us -- and defied the Saudi royal family -- because Westerners occupied Saudi Arabia (home to Mecca and Medina, the two holy sites) during the Gulf War.

 

[outofplace]

Easy solution to the whole problem (and I mean Mideast-West relations): pull out all U.S. interests in the entire region, Israel included. If they want to multilate their women, repeal constitutions and bomb each other into oblivion, so be it. In a few years, there should be the means to survive almost oil-free.

Yeah, there's an idea.

I can't wait to visit Tel Aviv after we pull all our support.

Come on, man. ****'s WAY more complicated than that.

Our unfettered support of Israel is the single reason we have been targeted in any terrorist attack.

It is virtually that simple.

I'm sorry, but I think this is incorrect.

OBL targeted us -- and defied the Saudi royal family -- because Westerners occupied Saudi Arabia (home to Mecca and Medina, the two holy sites) during the Gulf War.

Not to mention the problem we should have with where people are going when they try to put all of the blame for terrorists targeting the United States -- this seems to suggest we should bail on an ally out of fear.

Simon, is that what you are suggesting?

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

Easy solution to the whole problem (and I mean Mideast-West relations): pull out all U.S. interests in the entire region, Israel included. If they want to multilate their women, repeal constitutions and bomb each other into oblivion, so be it. In a few years, there should be the means to survive almost oil-free.

Yeah, there's an idea.

I can't wait to visit Tel Aviv after we pull all our support.

Come on, man. ****'s WAY more complicated than that.

Our unfettered support of Israel is the single reason we have been targeted in any terrorist attack.

It is virtually that simple.

I'm sorry, but I think this is incorrect.

OBL targeted us -- and defied the Saudi royal family -- because Westerners occupied Saudi Arabia (home to Mecca and Medina, the two holy sites) during the Gulf War.

Not to mention the problem we should have with where people are going when they try to put all of the blame for terrorists targeting the United States -- this seems to suggest we should bail on an ally out of fear.

Simon, is that what you are suggesting?

Regarding OBL, and the others....

It all stems from the Arab fury toward Israel. They wouldn't give a **** about any occupation by a U.S. presence if they didn't see us "taking sides" in the unholiest of holy wars. To them, in their way of looking at the world, we have been the terrorists for years and years.

"Bail" on an ally?

There is that black-white language that us sports journalists are head-over-heels for. The issue grayer than the London sky.

There is no realistic answer that can change this fact, unfortunately. Logic flew the coop many moons ago.

But, there is an interesting question: If your young children were being held at gunpoint by someone who truthfully told you the only way you could save their lives was by going to the house of your neighbor and killing him, would you do it?

At what point, if any, does the U.S. think about itself. We're very good at being selfish, we've done **** like that before.

No easy remedy.

 

[outofplace]

Easy solution to the whole problem (and I mean Mideast-West relations): pull out all U.S. interests in the entire region, Israel included. If they want to multilate their women, repeal constitutions and bomb each other into oblivion, so be it. In a few years, there should be the means to survive almost oil-free.

Yeah, there's an idea.

I can't wait to visit Tel Aviv after we pull all our support.

Come on, man. ****'s WAY more complicated than that.

Our unfettered support of Israel is the single reason we have been targeted in any terrorist attack.

It is virtually that simple.

I'm sorry, but I think this is incorrect.

OBL targeted us -- and defied the Saudi royal family -- because Westerners occupied Saudi Arabia (home to Mecca and Medina, the two holy sites) during the Gulf War.

Not to mention the problem we should have with where people are going when they try to put all of the blame for terrorists targeting the United States -- this seems to suggest we should bail on an ally out of fear.

Simon, is that what you are suggesting?

Regarding OBL, and the others....

It all stems from the Arab fury toward Israel. They wouldn't give a **** about any occupation by a U.S. presence if they didn't see us "taking sides" in the unholiest of holy wars. To them, in their way of looking at the world, we have been the terrorists for years and years.

There is no answer to remedy this fact, unfortunately. Logic flew the coop many moons ago.

You still didn't answer my question.

 

[jgmacg]

What about the "Arab fury" that pre-dates the creation of Israel? What about the fact that Iraq and Iran were created to function as client states/providers of raw materials for Great Britain? What about the fact that Iraqis and Iranians aren't Arabs? Or that we engineered the overthrow of Mossadegh in '53? Or that in political terms, Afghanistan and Pakistan couldn't possibly care less about the disposition of Israel? Or that the greatest growth markets for Islam are in places like Malaysia and Indonesia?

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

Easy solution to the whole problem (and I mean Mideast-West relations): pull out all U.S. interests in the entire region, Israel included. If they want to multilate their women, repeal constitutions and bomb each other into oblivion, so be it. In a few years, there should be the means to survive almost oil-free.

Yeah, there's an idea.

I can't wait to visit Tel Aviv after we pull all our support.

Come on, man. ****'s WAY more complicated than that.

Our unfettered support of Israel is the single reason we have been targeted in any terrorist attack.

It is virtually that simple.

I'm sorry, but I think this is incorrect.

OBL targeted us -- and defied the Saudi royal family -- because Westerners occupied Saudi Arabia (home to Mecca and Medina, the two holy sites) during the Gulf War.

Not to mention the problem we should have with where people are going when they try to put all of the blame for terrorists targeting the United States -- this seems to suggest we should bail on an ally out of fear.

Simon, is that what you are suggesting?

Regarding OBL, and the others....

It all stems from the Arab fury toward Israel. They wouldn't give a **** about any occupation by a U.S. presence if they didn't see us "taking sides" in the unholiest of holy wars. To them, in their way of looking at the world, we have been the terrorists for years and years.

There is no answer to remedy this fact, unfortunately. Logic flew the coop many moons ago.

You still didn't answer my question.

yes i did