Off of soccer, answer this....quantify Bobby Cox's managerial lifeline

[2muchcoffeeman]

If the fans won't fill Turner Field when the Braves are winning, how bad will it get once they suck?

See Stadium, Fulton County, circa 1987

BRRRR-RING ... BRRRRR-RING ... "Hello, Atlanta Braves." "Hi, um, what time does the game tonight start?" "Well, what time can you get here?"

 

[Armchair_QB]

If the fans won't fill Turner Field when the Braves are winning, how bad will it get once they suck?

See Stadium, Fulton County, circa 1987

BRRRR-RING ... BRRRRR-RING ... "Hello, Atlanta Braves." "Hi, um, what time does the game tonight start?" "Well, what time can you get here?"

I think it was Gerald Perry who said that there were nights when he would look around the stadium during a game and think "this'd be a good night to paint the seats."

 

[Moderator1]

I was talking to someone the other day and made the comment that this kind of feels like 1989 or 90. Lotta young talented players, in need of the one or two veterans to push them to the top. May not be a great analogy, but it kind of feels like that.

As for Cox, with the level of success he's had -- add to his Atlanta run a pretty impressive streak in Toronto -- it would be anathema to show him the door. It's clear the man knows what he's doing, although Driver 8 is right on point. Seems like he gains five pounds every time they fall another game back in the standings.

At his age and with that team, eating is probably the only pleasure he gets. I'd face plant the spread every night if I had to manage that bullpen.

 

[wickedwritah]

I'm more than happy to see the Braves' run end, but to see what happened to him last Sunday? To have Kevin Bleeping Youkilis prove to be a backbreaker? I'm a Sox fan, and even I was stunned at how far they've fallen.

 

[BYH]

They did win a World Series with Cox managing, so it's not like he's oh-fer. And with the exception of some curious pitching decisions he made in 1991, it ain't like he got outmanaged.

I disagree. He gets outmanaged almost every postseason. The first one that comes to mind is 2002, when he started Julio Franco in all five games despite the fact the Braves faced four righties and Matt Franco hit .317 against righties that year.

Bobby Valentine also owned him in 1999. Just ask him WHOAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

I think Cox is a lousy in-game manager, but he deserves a ton of credit for the hand he displays over a 162-game season. He'll be in the Hall of Fame for that gift.

 

[Double J]

I was talking to someone the other day and made the comment that this kind of feels like 1989 or 90. Lotta young talented players, in need of the one or two veterans to push them to the top. May not be a great analogy, but it kind of feels like that.

As for Cox, with the level of success he's had -- add to his Atlanta run a pretty impressive streak in Toronto -- it would be anathema to show him the door. It's clear the man knows what he's doing, although Driver 8 is right on point. Seems like he gains five pounds every time they fall another game back in the standings.

Blue Jays fans are still wondering how much sooner Toronto would have won a World Series had Cox stuck around after 1985.

 

[AgatePage]

Blue Jays fans are still wondering how much sooner Toronto would have won a World Series had Cox stuck around after 1985.

no we aren't. really. not after the premise of things to come by blowing a 3-1 lead in '85.

Jimmy and Cito did good things. We'll take our two titles and hope to get back in the postseason this year. Man it's nice to have a closer (even if he did almost blow it tonight).

 

[DyePack]

Oh, the bullpens have been ****ty, no doubt, but most of the freakin' batting lineups he's been forced to make out over the years couldn't have been a pleasurable experience. The Nos. 6 thru 8 spots have been, year after year, filled with absolute ****. He's had two decent leadoff guys in 15 years and he's never had anyone hit consistently out of the No. 2 spot.

Fire Bobby Cox ... yeah, right. With the talent he's been given, to have the success he's had, they oughta make the guy president.

Like much of what dogturdo says, this is a pile of ****.

Without going back and checking batting orders, I seem to remember a young Andruw Jones and Terry Pendleton hitting low in the order. I can virtually guarantee that when the team had a young, powerful Ryan Klesko along with Chipper Jones and Javy Lopez that there was at least some power out of the No. 6 slot.

One of the leadoff hitters was Otis Nixon, who ranks as one of the top base-stealers of all-time.

I can almost guarantee a small amount of research will reveal dogturdo's post to be one of extreme dip****tery.

 

[djc3317]

no, the dog's right.
nixon's one of the two decent leadoff guys. I'm assuming the other one he means is furcal. the only thing they've had less consistently than a decent leadoff hitter is a good closer.

while there were a couple years where they were okay in the 6-8 spots in the lineup, let's not overdo it...even maybe when they had young, powerful klesko, young chipper and young javy (like the only year they won the title), the team was far from being an offensive juggernaut.

95 lineup
cf grissom .258 12 HR 42 RBI
3b jones .265 23 HR 86 RBI
rf justice .253 24 HR 78 RBI
1b mcgriff .280 27 HR 93 RBI
lf klesko .310 23 HR 70 RBI
c lopez .315 14 HR 51 RBI
ss blauser .211 12 HR 31 RBI
2b lemke .253 5 HR 38 RBI

that doesn't exactly strike fear into your heart. the braves always got it done with pitching. the lineup and the bullpen have almost always been full of holes.

 

[Chi City 81]

no, the dog's right.
nixon's one of the two decent leadoff guys. I'm assuming the other one he means is furcal. the only thing they've had less consistently than a decent leadoff hitter is a good closer.

while there were a couple years where they were okay in the 6-8 spots in the lineup, let's not overdo it...even maybe when they had young, powerful klesko, young chipper and young javy (like the only year they won the title), the team was far from being an offensive juggernaut.

95 lineup
cf grissom .258 12 HR 42 RBI
3b jones .265 23 HR 86 RBI
rf justice .253 24 HR 78 RBI
1b mcgriff .280 27 HR 93 RBI
lf klesko .310 23 HR 70 RBI
c lopez .315 14 HR 51 RBI
ss blauser .211 12 HR 31 RBI
2b lemke .253 5 HR 38 RBI

that doesn't exactly strike fear into your heart. the braves always got it done with pitching. the lineup and the bullpen have almost always been full of holes.

There was plenty of speed and power in that lineup. '95 was a truncated season after the strike, otherwise they could have had four guys with 30-plus homers.

 

[djc3317]

the point was, that was the best they've done. that's the best lineup the braves have trotted out, since that's the one year they won the title. two guys over .280. leadoff man hit .258. three guys at .253 or lower. It was a great team, don't get me wrong, but it looks a helluva lot worse without maddux, glavine and smoltz starting and wohlers (when he was good) slamming the door.

 

[buckweaver]

'95 was a very *balanced* lineup, not a Murderer's Row lineup.

Every one of those guys -- especially guys like Polonia, Devereaux, Smith, O'Brien -- knew exactly what their role was and fit their role to a T. It's the best bench Atlanta has ever had in its 14-year run, bar none.

Yeah, the staff was superb, as usual. And Mark Wohlers was dominating as a closer for the first time. But the lineup was creative, it was clutch (Devereaux, of course, won the NLCS MVP that year), and it never gave up.

Say what you want about the stats, or the reputations, but Jones-Justice-McGriff-Klesko-Lopez came through all year long. That team shut down a powerhouse 100-44 Cleveland Indians team that fall. Definitely a strong lineup that any team would have trouble with.

 

[buckweaver]

the point was, that was the best they've done. that's the best lineup the braves have trotted out, since that's the one year they won the title. two guys over .280. leadoff man hit .258. three guys at .253 or lower. It was a great team, don't get me wrong, but it looks a helluva lot worse without maddux, glavine and smoltz starting and wohlers (when he was good) slamming the door.

That's a flawed logic.

Truth be told, the 2003 team was the "best" offensive team they've ever had. Scored 907 runs, most in franchise history. Every starter with double digit homers, career years from Lopez, Furcal and Giles. Five guys with 100+ runs. Four guys with 100+ RBI. Three guys hit over .300, a fourth was 8 points behind.

Team BA of .284, 1st in the NL.
Also led the league in R, H, HRs and SLG.
2nd in OBP, 4th in 2B, 6th in 3B.

1B Robert Fick .269 11 80
2B Marcus Giles .316 21 69
SS Rafael Furcal .292 15 61
3B Vinny Castilla .277 22 76
OF Chipper Jones .305 27 106
OF Andruw Jones .277 36 116
OF Gary Sheffield .330 39 132
C Javy Lopez .328 43 109

But they went out in the first round. Badly.

 

[Double J]

Blue Jays fans are still wondering how much sooner Toronto would have won a World Series had Cox stuck around after 1985.

no we aren't. really. not after the premise of things to come by blowing a 3-1 lead in '85.

Jimmy and Cito did good things. We'll take our two titles and hope to get back in the postseason this year. Man it's nice to have a closer (even if he did almost blow it tonight).

I don't really know if the '85 collapse can be blamed on Cox. It was one of those things that happen. Game 5 and Game 6 could have gone either way and it wasn't Cox who served up the pitch to Jim Sundberg that basically ended Game 7.

I just don't think it would have taken the Jays another four years to get back to the playoffs if Cox had still been at the helm. They should have won multiple division titles, at least, through the late '80s and may very well have done so if not for Jimy (One M) Williams trying desperately to prove he had a bigger **** than George Bell.

I'll agree with you, though, that Cito did a great job. He has never gotten the credit he deserved for winning two World Series.

 

[buckweaver]

Cito's still getting robbed to this day. What an injustice.

Consider:

Blue Jays manager, 1989-1997
9 seasons (683-636 record, .518)
4 division titles
2 AL pennants
2 World Series titles

Never got a managerial job before 1989. Never got a managerial job after 1997. Why is this?

 

[Double J]

People have always thought that Cito was capable of no more than filling out the lineup card -- the team was so talented it basically managed itself. He's never been able to shake that.

Probably the low point in his career came when the Jays rehired him as a hitting coach, working for Jim Fregosi, the guy he had beaten in the '93 World Series. Fregosi, who has never won a World Series, has managed four different clubs and always seems to be in the running for one vacancy or another.

But perhaps Cito is his own biggest problem. From what I understand he's always been kind of a laidback guy, not too interested in blowing his own horn. Unfortunately, as my dad's always told me, if you don't blow your own horn, no one else will do it for you.

 

[buckweaver]

People have always thought that Cito was capable of no more than filling out the lineup card -- the team was so talented it basically managed itself. He's never been able to shake that.

And every manager of a 110-win club that didn't win the World Series says, "Yeah, you wish it managed itself."

 

[djc3317]

the point was, that was the best they've done. that's the best lineup the braves have trotted out, since that's the one year they won the title. two guys over .280. leadoff man hit .258. three guys at .253 or lower. It was a great team, don't get me wrong, but it looks a helluva lot worse without maddux, glavine and smoltz starting and wohlers (when he was good) slamming the door.

That's a flawed logic.

yeah, I didn't really mean it literally. I just meant that it was the one lineup that won the whole thing, and that it wasn't fearsome. It came out a little too lazily thanks to a few too many tasty adult beverages.

 

[novelist_wannabe]

no, the dog's right.
nixon's one of the two decent leadoff guys. I'm assuming the other one he means is furcal. the only thing they've had less consistently than a decent leadoff hitter is a good closer.

while there were a couple years where they were okay in the 6-8 spots in the lineup, let's not overdo it...even maybe when they had young, powerful klesko, young chipper and young javy (like the only year they won the title), the team was far from being an offensive juggernaut.

95 lineup
cf grissom .258 12 HR 42 RBI
3b jones .265 23 HR 86 RBI
rf justice .253 24 HR 78 RBI
1b mcgriff .280 27 HR 93 RBI
lf klesko .310 23 HR 70 RBI
c lopez .315 14 HR 51 RBI
ss blauser .211 12 HR 31 RBI
2b lemke .253 5 HR 38 RBI

that doesn't exactly strike fear into your heart. the braves always got it done with pitching. the lineup and the bullpen have almost always been full of holes.

There was plenty of speed and power in that lineup. '95 was a truncated season after the strike, otherwise they could have had four guys with 30-plus homers.

Maybe, but I doubt it. I realize I'm splitting hairs here, but the season was shortened by 18 games. McGriff would amost certainly have reached 30. Klesko and Chipper would have had to hit seven more (seven in 18 games is a pace for 63 over a full season) and Justice would have had to hit six (a 54 pace). Probably stretching it to think they could have all gotten to 30. Still a potent lineup though, and a lot of homers aren't always a world championship indicator anyway. While the last six world series winners have had at least one 30-homer guy, the previous four did not. In the Yankees' three-straight run, only Bernie Williams in 2000 had 30.

(god, I love baseballreference.com)

 

[Armchair_QB]

Yeah, but fearsome in what way?

That every slugger 1-9 could knock you out of the park? By that definition, no.

Or that the entire lineup 1-9, plus bench, could beat you in a number of different ways, especially in the clutch? Because then, you'd have to say, yes. Those '95 Braves were "fearsome."

Exactly. Baseball hasn't always been about hitting home runs. Look at that line-up. If you're a pitcher there isn't a break in there from 1-8. You've got to pitch your ass off every single at-bat.

When a pitcher is standing on the mound thinking "****, now I've got to face THIS guy too," that's the definition of fearsome.