John Elway

[Gehrig]

We tend to accept it on faith that he was one of the all-time great QBs. His bulk stats attest to that:
#6 all-time in passing yards
#7 in passing TDs
#6 in completions
.641 career winning percentage
#4 in career wins for a QB

But looking at his efficiency numbers tells a different story. Obviously, comparing him to guys playing today is silly because of how much the game has changed, but even compared to his contemporaries, Elway rarely stood out in terms of efficiency.
In fact, throughout his career, the only times Elway led the league in any statistical category, it was for bulk totals (twice for attempts, once for completions and once for yards)

I compared his numbers in five efficiency categories (completion %, TD%, INT%, yards per attempt and passer rating) year-by-year to those of the median (I didn't use mean because it would be affected by outliers) qualifying QBs and found that, especially in the 80s and early 90s, Elway rarely did much better than the median in any of these categories and was frequently worse.
(Green indicates better than league median; Red indicates worse)

Elway's efficiency numbers only remain consistently better than the league median only when Denver switches to the West Coast Offense with the arrival of Jim Fassel as the offensive coordinator in 1993 (the team would stick to that offensive system when Mike Shanahan takes over in '95), and as we all know, the WCO can make any quarterback look good. And even under those favorable conditions, Elway's numbers still lagged well behind other notable WCO quarterbacks like Steve Young, Brett Favre, Erik Kramer and Randall Cunningham.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Yep, he sucked.

 

[poindexter]

We tend to accept it on faith that he was one of the all-time great QBs. His bulk stats attest to that:
#6 all-time in passing yards
#7 in passing TDs
#6 in completions
.641 career winning percentage
#4 in career wins for a QB

But looking at his efficiency numbers tells a different story. Obviously, comparing him to guys playing today is silly because of how much the game has changed, but even compared to his contemporaries, Elway rarely stood out in terms of efficiency.
In fact, throughout his career, the only times Elway led the league in any statistical category, it was for bulk totals (twice for attempts, once for completions and once for yards)

I compared his numbers in five efficiency categories (completion %, TD%, INT%, yards per attempt and passer rating) year-by-year to those of the median (I didn't use mean because it would be affected by outliers) qualifying QBs and found that, especially in the 80s and early 90s, Elway rarely did much better than the median in any of these categories and was frequently worse.
(Green indicates better than league median; Red indicates worse)

Elway's efficiency numbers only remain consistently better than the league median only when Denver switches to the West Coast Offense with the arrival of Jim Fassel as the offensive coordinator in 1993 (the team would stick to that offensive system when Mike Shanahan takes over in '95), and as we all know, the WCO can make any quarterback look good. And even under those favorable conditions, Elway's numbers still lagged well behind other notable WCO quarterbacks like Steve Young, Brett Favre, Erik Kramer and Randall Cunningham.

Someone enjoys cutting and pasting from other message boards.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=557236

 

[Songbird]

It's only appropriate that Stephen Glass writes a story about Gehrig.

 

[Mr. Sunshine]

If there's a stat for carrying mediocre teams to the Super Bowl, Elway has to be No. 1.

 

[poindexter]

Per "Gerhig"'s sig:

"He who is not courageous enough to cut and paste on message boards will accomplish nothing in life. "

 

[poindexter]

If there's a stat for carrying mediocre teams to the Super Bowl, Elway has to be No. 1.

I'm not accepting on faith that one bit of those stats provided are correct.

 

[Double Down]

1. A paranoid, conservative head coach for almost his entire prime? Check.
2. Garbage ass wide receivers and running backs who disappeared the minute they tried to go elsewhere? Check.
3. A franchise that thought it was wise to spend a first round pick on Tommy Maddux in his prime? Check.

Get back to me on how we measure these statistically, please.

 

[RecoveringJournalist]

Of people whose NFL careers are over, I think he's the second-best QB of my lifetime, behind only Montana.

 

[Mr. Sunshine]

I would agree with that.

 

[The Big Ragu]

1. A paranoid, conservative head coach for almost his entire prime? Check.
2. Garbage ass wide receivers and running backs who disappeared the minute they tried to go elsewhere? Check.
3. A franchise that thought it was wise to spend a first round pick on Tommy Maddux in his prime? Check.

Get back to me on how we measure these statistically, please.

I was never even an Elway guy. But right on.

Is this where we get the proliferation of "Who was better, Steve Grogan or John Elway" threads?

 

[Mr. Sunshine]

1. A paranoid, conservative head coach for almost his entire prime? Check.
2. Garbage ass wide receivers and running backs who disappeared the minute they tried to go elsewhere? Check.
3. A franchise that thought it was wise to spend a first round pick on Tommy Maddux in his prime? Check.

Get back to me on how we measure these statistically, please.

I was never even an Elway guy. But right on.

Is this where we get the proliferation of "Who was better, Steve Grogan or John Elway" threads?

Any mention of Steve Grogan reminds me of watching Patriots-Dolphins on Monday Night Football as a young lad.

 

[RecoveringJournalist]

It may have been Terrell Davis' team at the end, but his last game he was Super Bowl MVP.

That's insane to think about.

 

[Mr. Sunshine]

It may have been Terrell Davis' team at the end, but his last game he was Super Bowl MVP.

That's insane to think about.

Much better than Marino's last game.

 

[Stoney]

Of people whose NFL careers are over, I think he's the second-best QB of my lifetime, behind only Montana.

Hell, he may not even be the best in his draft class. For all but the end of their careers, Marino was generally regarded as the better QB. Elway getting the rings at the end changed that perception, but changed perception doesn't necessarily mean true.

 

[Roscablo]

1. A paranoid, conservative head coach for almost his entire prime? Check.
2. Garbage ass wide receivers and running backs who disappeared the minute they tried to go elsewhere? Check.
3. A franchise that thought it was wise to spend a first round pick on Tommy Maddux in his prime? Check.

Get back to me on how we measure these statistically, please.

I think this is very spot on. How about the fact that Shanny never really won without him either. I think that says a lot.

 

[Mr. Sunshine]

Of people whose NFL careers are over, I think he's the second-best QB of my lifetime, behind only Montana.

Hell, he may not even be the best in his draft class. For a but the end of their careers, Marino was generally regarded as the better QB. Elway getting the rings at the end changed that perception, but changed perception doesn't necessarily mean true.

That is not correct. Those rings certainly solidified Elway's standing, but he was in the discussion with Montana and Marino for years before it all came together at the end.

 

[Meatie Pie]

Best QB of the last 40 years.

Bled victories from defeats with mediocrity around him for most of his career. Had no freaking ACL in one of his knees.

Stats that favorably compare Erik Kramer to him should be ignored by reasonable people.

And damn, dude . . . at least paraphrase if you want to start dumb threads.

Of people whose NFL careers are over, I think he's the second-best QB of my lifetime, behind only Montana.

Hell, he may not even be the best in his draft class. For a but the end of their careers, Marino was generally regarded as the better QB. Elway getting the rings at the end changed that perception, but changed perception doesn't necessarily mean true.

Marino was the blueprint for Peyton. Overrated due to a lot of scoring passes in blowouts.. Much more to the position than pretty numbers.

 

[RecoveringJournalist]

Of people whose NFL careers are over, I think he's the second-best QB of my lifetime, behind only Montana.

Hell, he may not even be the best in his draft class. For all but the end of their careers, Marino was generally regarded as the better QB. Elway getting the rings at the end changed that perception, but changed perception doesn't necessarily mean true.

That's true. But we all know the power of a couple rings.

Perception changes even after retirement. When Favre broke the TD record, people were writing the top 10 all-time QB list with him in the top 5. After he retired, he didn't make too many of those lists. Now that he's back in the public eye and a year or so away from being elected into the HOF, he'll be in the conversation again.

I'm certainly not in the "Marino didn't win a ring, so he's not in the conversation" camp, but I'd take Elway over him.

 

[Stoney]

Of people whose NFL careers are over, I think he's the second-best QB of my lifetime, behind only Montana.

Hell, he may not even be the best in his draft class. For a but the end of their careers, Marino was generally regarded as the better QB. Elway getting the rings at the end changed that perception, but changed perception doesn't necessarily mean true.

That is not correct. Those rings certainly solidified Elway's standing, but he was in the discussion with Montana and Marino for years before it all came together at the end.

Read again. I never said he wasn't "in the discussion." He was certainly there, but as I recall, before 97/98 that discussion usually concluded with him coming in behind Marino/Montana.