John Elway

[Mr. Sunshine]

Of people whose NFL careers are over, I think he's the second-best QB of my lifetime, behind only Montana.

Hell, he may not even be the best in his draft class. For a but the end of their careers, Marino was generally regarded as the better QB. Elway getting the rings at the end changed that perception, but changed perception doesn't necessarily mean true.

That is not correct. Those rings certainly solidified Elway's standing, but he was in the discussion with Montana and Marino for years before it all came together at the end.

Read again. I never said he wasn't "in the discussion." He was certainly there, but as I recall, before 97/98 that discussion usually concluded with him coming in behind Marino/Montana.

Behind Montana, yes. But by then, he had established his legacy as Mr. Comeback (the running tally of those was a staple of watching the NFL for a good decade-plus), he had gotten into a system in which he was putting up comparable numbers to Marino and Marino's fast start seemed like a million years ago by the mid-90s, when he was just a hobbled, bitchy, good but no longer great quarterback

 

[RecoveringJournalist]

Of people whose NFL careers are over, I think he's the second-best QB of my lifetime, behind only Montana.

Hell, he may not even be the best in his draft class. For a but the end of their careers, Marino was generally regarded as the better QB. Elway getting the rings at the end changed that perception, but changed perception doesn't necessarily mean true.

That is not correct. Those rings certainly solidified Elway's standing, but he was in the discussion with Montana and Marino for years before it all came together at the end.

The Elway-Marino comparison was pretty interesting until Elway ended his career with two rings.

 

[Small Town Guy]

You know how some people hate the word moist?

That's me and "efficiency." And this is not just because I'm a Kobe fan who's even enjoying his performance this year, his most inefficient of seasons.

Erik Kramer was more efficient than John Elway? Great. About as useful as knowing Chris Paul has a superior PER to Magic.

 

[Double Down]

I will listen any argument about stats and baseball — park factors and BABIP and OPS+ and whatever the **** you can dream up — and give it appropriate consideration. Every baseball game is a series of tiny one-on-one match-ups, and while I can feel a little wary of some of your comparables by pointing to **** like the way the Twins made David Ortiz into a punch-and-judy hitter by insisting he follow their organizational philosophy and argue this devalued his actual talent considerably, I am, for the most part fine with making statistical comparisons between baseball players.

I remain extremely skeptical of straight-across football comparisons. Extremely. Give John Elway a receiver like Jerry Rice for his entire career and it is staggering to imagine what he might have done. Hell, give him Bill Walsh and it would have been a trip. No matter what Aaron Schatz believes, football statistics are not to the point yet where we can account for play-calling, and schematics, and field position strategy, and the fact that John Elway frequently threw brilliant passes while running for his life because his offensive line was awful, his receivers should have been selling insurance, and his head coach was an old school offensive neanderthal.

 

[Mr. Sunshine]

Of people whose NFL careers are over, I think he's the second-best QB of my lifetime, behind only Montana.

Hell, he may not even be the best in his draft class. For a but the end of their careers, Marino was generally regarded as the better QB. Elway getting the rings at the end changed that perception, but changed perception doesn't necessarily mean true.

That is not correct. Those rings certainly solidified Elway's standing, but he was in the discussion with Montana and Marino for years before it all came together at the end.

The Elway-Marino comparison was pretty interesting until Elway ended his career with two rings.

Marino stumbling to the finish line and that God-awful finale against the Jags in the playoffs are still hurting Marino today. Not to mention that the game has changed to the point that many people forget how amazing his numbers were at the time early in his career.

 

[Evil ... Thy name is Orville Redenbacher!!]

I will listen any argument about stats and baseball — park factors and BABIP and OPS+ and whatever the **** you can dream up — and give it appropriate consideration. Every baseball game is a series of tiny one-on-one match-ups, and while I can feel a little wary of some of your comparables by pointing to **** like the way the Twins made David Ortiz into a punch-and-judy hitter by insisting he follow their organizational philosophy and argue this devalued his actual talent considerably, I am, for the most part fine with making statistical comparisons between baseball players.

I remain extremely skeptical of straight-across football comparisons. Extremely. Give John Elway a receiver like Jerry Rice for his entire career and it is staggering to imagine what he might have done. Hell, give him Bill Walsh and it would have been a trip. No matter what Aaron Schatz believes, football statistics are not to the point yet where we can account for play-calling, and schematics, and field position strategy, and the fact that John Elway frequently threw brilliant passes while running for his life because his offensive line was awful, his receivers should have been selling insurance, and his head coach was an old school offensive neanderthal.

You know the Broncos went to five Super Bowls, right?
Five.
FIVE. Three in a row and back to back.
For several years they were among the top teams in the NFL and the class of AFC.
That usually doesn't happen because Superman is lining up behind the center.

Marino didn't have Elway's elusiveness, but he had a trigger release on that cannon. Try giving Marino half of the running backs Elway had and a defense and see how Super Bowls he makes.
As noted already, Marino's annual passing numbers were stratospheric. That's saying something given he proceeded the Fouts/Air-Coryell Era.

A great QB is not going to take a team to two Super Bowls, muchless five, without some help. Elway's teams had a lot of things Marino's Dolphins lacked.

 

[Mr. Sunshine]

I will listen any argument about stats and baseball — park factors and BABIP and OPS+ and whatever the **** you can dream up — and give it appropriate consideration. Every baseball game is a series of tiny one-on-one match-ups, and while I can feel a little wary of some of your comparables by pointing to **** like the way the Twins made David Ortiz into a punch-and-judy hitter by insisting he follow their organizational philosophy and argue this devalued his actual talent considerably, I am, for the most part fine with making statistical comparisons between baseball players.

I remain extremely skeptical of straight-across football comparisons. Extremely. Give John Elway a receiver like Jerry Rice for his entire career and it is staggering to imagine what he might have done. Hell, give him Bill Walsh and it would have been a trip. No matter what Aaron Schatz believes, football statistics are not to the point yet where we can account for play-calling, and schematics, and field position strategy, and the fact that John Elway frequently threw brilliant passes while running for his life because his offensive line was awful, his receivers should have been selling insurance, and his head coach was an old school offensive neanderthal.

You know the Broncos went to five Super Bowls, right?
Five.
FIVE. Three in a row and back to back.
For several years they were among the top teams in the NFL and the class of AFC.
That usually doesn't happen because Superman is lining up behind the center.

Marino didn't have Elway's elusiveness, but he had a trigger release on that cannon. Try giving Marino half of the running backs Elway had and a defense and see how Super Bowls he makes.
As noted already, Marino's annual passing numbers were stratospheric. That's saying something given he proceeded the Fouts/Air-Coryell Era.

A great QB is not going to take a team to two Super Bowls, muchless five, without some help. Elway's teams had a lot of things Marino's Dolphins lacked.

I'm sure Marino would be right up there with Montana if he had Sammy Winder and Steve Sewell in his backfield. Also, he'll probably never admit it, but I bet Marino wishes he didn't get dragged down by those stiffs Duper and Clayton and instead could have thrown passes to studs like Ricky Nattiel and Vance Johnson.

 

[Evil ... Thy name is Orville Redenbacher!!]

I will listen any argument about stats and baseball — park factors and BABIP and OPS+ and whatever the **** you can dream up — and give it appropriate consideration. Every baseball game is a series of tiny one-on-one match-ups, and while I can feel a little wary of some of your comparables by pointing to **** like the way the Twins made David Ortiz into a punch-and-judy hitter by insisting he follow their organizational philosophy and argue this devalued his actual talent considerably, I am, for the most part fine with making statistical comparisons between baseball players.

I remain extremely skeptical of straight-across football comparisons. Extremely. Give John Elway a receiver like Jerry Rice for his entire career and it is staggering to imagine what he might have done. Hell, give him Bill Walsh and it would have been a trip. No matter what Aaron Schatz believes, football statistics are not to the point yet where we can account for play-calling, and schematics, and field position strategy, and the fact that John Elway frequently threw brilliant passes while running for his life because his offensive line was awful, his receivers should have been selling insurance, and his head coach was an old school offensive neanderthal.

You know the Broncos went to five Super Bowls, right?
Five.
FIVE. Three in a row and back to back.
For several years they were among the top teams in the NFL and the class of AFC.
That usually doesn't happen because Superman is lining up behind the center.

Marino didn't have Elway's elusiveness, but he had a trigger release on that cannon. Try giving Marino half of the running backs Elway had and a defense and see how Super Bowls he makes.
As noted already, Marino's annual passing numbers were stratospheric. That's saying something given he proceeded the Fouts/Air-Coryell Era.

A great QB is not going to take a team to two Super Bowls, muchless five, without some help. Elway's teams had a lot of things Marino's Dolphins lacked.

I'm sure Marino would be right up there with Montana if he had Sammy Winder and Steve Sewell in his backfield. Also, he'll probably never admit it, but I bet Marino wishes he didn't get dragged down by those stiffs Duper and Clayton and instead could have thrown passes to studs like Ricky Nattiel and Vance Johnson.

He might have been able to keep pace if he wasn't counting on Bernie Parmalee, Karim Abdul-Jabbar, Sammie Smith and Mark Higgs to run the ball.
If only Marino had a good running scheme or run-blockers, or backs. How many times did Bronco RBs lead the league in rushing? That's prolly not a coincidence coupled with their Super Bowl appearances.

 

[Evil ... Thy name is Orville Redenbacher!!]

I will listen any argument about stats and baseball — park factors and BABIP and OPS+ and whatever the **** you can dream up — and give it appropriate consideration. Every baseball game is a series of tiny one-on-one match-ups, and while I can feel a little wary of some of your comparables by pointing to **** like the way the Twins made David Ortiz into a punch-and-judy hitter by insisting he follow their organizational philosophy and argue this devalued his actual talent considerably, I am, for the most part fine with making statistical comparisons between baseball players.

I remain extremely skeptical of straight-across football comparisons. Extremely. Give John Elway a receiver like Jerry Rice for his entire career and it is staggering to imagine what he might have done. Hell, give him Bill Walsh and it would have been a trip. No matter what Aaron Schatz believes, football statistics are not to the point yet where we can account for play-calling, and schematics, and field position strategy, and the fact that John Elway frequently threw brilliant passes while running for his life because his offensive line was awful, his receivers should have been selling insurance, and his head coach was an old school offensive neanderthal.

John Elway and the 1986 Denver Broncos take the field.

 

[Jake_Taylor]

Elway ruined enough Sundays of my youth for me to begrudgingly acknowledge and appreciate his greatness.

 

[Evil ... Thy name is Orville Redenbacher!!]

He was great. One of the best ever, no question.

But the idea he took the football equivalent of the Three Stooges, Our Gang and Steve Urkel to five Super Bowls is laughable.

He had coaches who built him a sound - if not great - running game, and a solid defense.
I think its a testament to the Broncos coaches and O-line that thery could plug in a RB and lead the league in rush yardage. That's a hell of luxury for a any QB to have, muchless on of Elway's talents.


WTF did Shula do? He rode Marino as far as he could. Yeah, he had Duper and Clayton. And no running game. Ever.
Who did Marino have the latter half of his career? OJ McDuffie.

The Broncos played in a pretty tough division.
Miami ? Not so much, outside of the Bills Dynasty, Marino and the Dolphins had the run of the division. But, they played a few cold weather matchups, where a running game would have really helped.


Anyway ...

 

[Michael_ Gee]

In the '80s, Marino was almost unanimously considered by people INSIDE the NFL as better than Elway. But then Marino started to pile up injuries, and Elway kept on going, and perceptions changed. I'd take either one, myself.

 

[ThomsonONE]

I will listen any argument about stats and baseball — park factors and BABIP and OPS+ and whatever the **** you can dream up — and give it appropriate consideration. Every baseball game is a series of tiny one-on-one match-ups, and while I can feel a little wary of some of your comparables by pointing to **** like the way the Twins made David Ortiz into a punch-and-judy hitter by insisting he follow their organizational philosophy and argue this devalued his actual talent considerably, I am, for the most part fine with making statistical comparisons between baseball players.

I remain extremely skeptical of straight-across football comparisons. Extremely. Give John Elway a receiver like Jerry Rice for his entire career and it is staggering to imagine what he might have done. Hell, give him Bill Walsh and it would have been a trip. No matter what Aaron Schatz believes, football statistics are not to the point yet where we can account for play-calling, and schematics, and field position strategy, and the fact that John Elway frequently threw brilliant passes while running for his life because his offensive line was awful, his receivers should have been selling insurance, and his head coach was an old school offensive neanderthal.

You know the Broncos went to five Super Bowls, right?
Five.
FIVE. Three in a row and back to back.
For several years they were among the top teams in the NFL and the class of AFC.
That usually doesn't happen because Superman is lining up behind the center.

Marino didn't have Elway's elusiveness, but he had a trigger release on that cannon. Try giving Marino half of the running backs Elway had and a defense and see how Super Bowls he makes.
As noted already, Marino's annual passing numbers were stratospheric. That's saying something given he proceeded the Fouts/Air-Coryell Era.

A great QB is not going to take a team to two Super Bowls, muchless five, without some help. Elway's teams had a lot of things Marino's Dolphins lacked.

Wasn't three in a row, the Dan Reeves era SBs were 3 in 4 years. Bengals in '88 broke the string.

 

[cyclingwriter2]

The legend of the bad Broncos teams doesn't always meet reality.

For example, the 1989 team had the number one scoring defense and were third in yards. The 1987 team was 7 and 9 in those categories and the 1986 teams was 15 and 9.

 

[Stoney]

What originally looked like Marino's blessing turned out to be his curse: being drafted by one of the league's most experienced (ie. oldest) and best teams at the time (83).

Worked out great the first couple years (going 14-2 and reaching the Super Bowl his second season), but then all those old guys went over the hill at once, and the Dolphins were left re-building from scraps when Marino hit his prime.

I know stats can be misleading, but it's worth pointing out that there's no doubt which guy the passing numbers say is better. Marino clearly has the superior statistical resume, and in a few categories I dare say it's really not even close:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariDa00.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

The only significant distinguisher Elway has over Marino is the rings, which he did not win until his final two seasons on loaded teams on which he really wasn't even the top offensive performer (remember Terrelle Davis, merely the League MVP in 98). Yet for that reason only Elway now seems to get universally ranked ahead of Marino. Nevermind that if you flipped the rosters the ring count would likely also be reversed.

 

[3_Octave_Fart]

The Broncos' defensive front during those Super Bowl runs was comparatively a joke.
They were easy to push around even by the middling teams and were.
Dumb thread.

 

[Mr. Sunshine]

What originally looked like Marino's blessing turned out to be his curse: being drafted by one of the league's most experienced (ie. oldest) and best teams at the time (83).

Worked out great the first couple years (going 14-2 and reaching the Super Bowl his second season), but then all those old guys went over the hill at once, and the Dolphins were left re-building from scraps when Marino hit his prime.

I know stats can be misleading, but it's worth pointing out that there's no doubt which guy the passing numbers say is better. Marino clearly has the superior statistical resume, and in a few categories I dare say it's really not even close:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariDa00.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

The only significant distinguisher Elway has over Marino is the rings, which he did not win until his final two seasons on loaded teams on which he really wasn't even the top offensive performer (remember Terrelle Davis, merely the League MVP in 98). Yet for that reason only Elway now seems to get universally ranked ahead of Marino. Nevermind that if you flipped the rosters the ring count would likely also be reversed.

Again, Elway was widely believed to be one of the game's greatest clutch performers BEFORE -- long before -- he won his two Super Bowls. It's not as if those two victories suddenly vaulted him into these discussions. You make it sound like he was Ken O'Brien.

 

[BTExpress]

As noted already, Marino's annual passing numbers were stratospheric. That's saying something given he proceeded the Fouts/Air-Coryell Era.

Are you trying to say Marino "preceded" the Fouts/Air Coryell era?

Fouts' career: 1973-87
Marino's career: 1983-99

Or is this another one of the blue-font-without-the-blue-font posts?

 

[Stoney]

What originally looked like Marino's blessing turned out to be his curse: being drafted by one of the league's most experienced (ie. oldest) and best teams at the time (83).

Worked out great the first couple years (going 14-2 and reaching the Super Bowl his second season), but then all those old guys went over the hill at once, and the Dolphins were left re-building from scraps when Marino hit his prime.

I know stats can be misleading, but it's worth pointing out that there's no doubt which guy the passing numbers say is better. Marino clearly has the superior statistical resume, and in a few categories I dare say it's really not even close:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariDa00.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

The only significant distinguisher Elway has over Marino is the rings, which he did not win until his final two seasons on loaded teams on which he really wasn't even the top offensive performer (remember Terrelle Davis, merely the League MVP in 98). Yet for that reason only Elway now seems to get universally ranked ahead of Marino. Nevermind that if you flipped the rosters the ring count would likely also be reversed.

Again, Elway was widely believed to be one of the game's greatest clutch performers BEFORE -- long before -- he won his two Super Bowls. It's not as if those two victories suddenly vaulted him into these discussions. You make it sound like he was Ken O'Brien.

Bull****. That's not what I'm saying at all. I think he was undisputably top 3 from his era (along with Marino and Montana) regardless of whether he'd won the rings or not.

And I'm quite aware of his clutch reputation, and I remember those "comeback counts" on ESPN damn well. But that alone was not enough to vault him ahead of Marino, and he generally was not so regarded until the end of his career when he got the rings. The rings were plainly the difference maker in why it now seems accepted that he should rank ahead of Marino, which I'm not sure is entirely fair considering the inferior supporting cast Marino was burdened with for the majority of his career.

That's all I'm saying. Not denying his greatness.

 

[Mr. Sunshine]

What originally looked like Marino's blessing turned out to be his curse: being drafted by one of the league's most experienced (ie. oldest) and best teams at the time (83).

Worked out great the first couple years (going 14-2 and reaching the Super Bowl his second season), but then all those old guys went over the hill at once, and the Dolphins were left re-building from scraps when Marino hit his prime.

I know stats can be misleading, but it's worth pointing out that there's no doubt which guy the passing numbers say is better. Marino clearly has the superior statistical resume, and in a few categories I dare say it's really not even close:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MariDa00.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

The only significant distinguisher Elway has over Marino is the rings, which he did not win until his final two seasons on loaded teams on which he really wasn't even the top offensive performer (remember Terrelle Davis, merely the League MVP in 98). Yet for that reason only Elway now seems to get universally ranked ahead of Marino. Nevermind that if you flipped the rosters the ring count would likely also be reversed.

Again, Elway was widely believed to be one of the game's greatest clutch performers BEFORE -- long before -- he won his two Super Bowls. It's not as if those two victories suddenly vaulted him into these discussions. You make it sound like he was Ken O'Brien.

Bull****. That's not what I'm saying at all. I think he was undisputably top 3 from his era (along with Marino and Montana) regardless of whether he'd won the rings or not.

And I'm quite aware of his clutch reputation, and I remember those "comeback counts" on ESPN damn well. But that alone was not enough to vault him ahead of Marino, and he generally was not so regarded until the end of his career when he got the rings. The rings were plainly the difference maker in why it now seems accepted that he should rank ahead of Marino, which I'm not sure is entirely fair considering the inferior supporting cast Marino was burdened with for the majority of his career.

That's all I'm saying. Not denying his greatness.

For the first 12 years of his career, which players on the Broncos are you referring to when you talk about Elway's better supporting cast?