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Tom Petty
Guest
boots said:
boots - maybe this board is a little like real iife ... you have to prove yourself before others decide to prove themselves.
boots - maybe this board is a little like real iife ... you have to prove yourself before others decide to prove themselves.
Tom, who on this board does anyone have to "prove themselves" to? If you mean be accepted in the message board clique, you might have a point.Tom Petty said:
But what does anyone, including you and I, prove here? That we have access to a computer? That we can rant about what we want?
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Tom Petty
Guest
boots said:
boots - i will give you the last reply to this thought because i think we are beginning to stray quite a bit from thread's original meaning, but, don't we all have to prove ourselves even a little bit in every facet of our lives? i mean the girl who works the counter of the store i go to every day on the way into work respects me a ****load more now than she did the first day i walked through the door. hence, i proved myself to the "minimum-wage keeper" of my unsweetened ice tea, and now she asks my opinions and if i'm having a nice day or not. am i cliquish with her when i walk in the door of that particular store? maybe, if that's how you want to label the interaction. but, the bottom line is, we all have to establish our roles before anyone accepts us for who we are or aren't. that's not "newspaper sportsguy stuff," that's just life.
i think it's unfair to label this board as anything more or less even if i am defending PW.
I have to prove myself to only one person, God. In life, you're going to have people who like and dislike you. A perfect analogy is Jesus and the 12 disciples.Tom Petty said:
All PW wanted was a little direction. He got thrown to the wolves. That wasn't right.
Joe Williams
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 4,846
The adversarial role noted by waynew is vital to what we do. If you schmooze too much with the people you cover, you will compromise your ability to do the hard stories. And no matter how much you schmooze them, the truth is, they would rather you not be around at all. Unless you have no watchdog in you anymore, whatsoever.
Now, more than ever in this business, you start to feel that the folks back at the shop don't have your back, either (not in any tangible way, Tom Petty). No raises or lousy ones, no advancement, downsizing that spills more work onto you, budget cuts that eliminate some of the better assignments, editors who relay -- without filters, to save their own asses -- all sorts of criticism and crap from management and readers. You're on the road while your kids are growing up, getting turned down for a post-practice interview by a screwhead with a $5 million contract and a $5 brain/heart/spine, and then you get shredded in the "comments" section at the end of that blog you had to crank out in your 10th or 11th hour of work that day (you know, one of the unpaid ones).
You look back over the last year and can only come up with five or six stories that stood out for you, because of the grind. Then you see jobs for which you'd give a kidney filled (or worse, vacated) by folks who are no better than you but satisfy a demographic category. You think about where the industry as a whole is headed and the horse race between hanging on till a retirement you might not be able to properly fund vs. getting booted out by bosses panicking to cut costs.
No wonder some of us start thinking about working for a living and somehow writing for a hobby.
Now, more than ever in this business, you start to feel that the folks back at the shop don't have your back, either (not in any tangible way, Tom Petty). No raises or lousy ones, no advancement, downsizing that spills more work onto you, budget cuts that eliminate some of the better assignments, editors who relay -- without filters, to save their own asses -- all sorts of criticism and crap from management and readers. You're on the road while your kids are growing up, getting turned down for a post-practice interview by a screwhead with a $5 million contract and a $5 brain/heart/spine, and then you get shredded in the "comments" section at the end of that blog you had to crank out in your 10th or 11th hour of work that day (you know, one of the unpaid ones).
You look back over the last year and can only come up with five or six stories that stood out for you, because of the grind. Then you see jobs for which you'd give a kidney filled (or worse, vacated) by folks who are no better than you but satisfy a demographic category. You think about where the industry as a whole is headed and the horse race between hanging on till a retirement you might not be able to properly fund vs. getting booted out by bosses panicking to cut costs.
No wonder some of us start thinking about working for a living and somehow writing for a hobby.
fishwrapper
Active Member
Pulitzer Wannabe said:
I was going to abstain from this thread. I grow tired of whining.
But, this is a wonderful point. One worth noting and one I've thought of many times during those 12-14 hour days.
I've discovered, in management of a section, there can be -- at times -- very little journalism in newspapering. But around the corner, there is that special story. That piece no one else will have. The one that gets you excited. Makes you excited to go to work.
Frustration is a state mind. Devotion is a lifestyle.
H
hockeybeat
Guest
Pulitzer Wannabe said:
PW, without outing yourself, what do you cover? Preps? Colleges? Pros? GA? What do you thing journalism is?
The best advice I can give is to try to get to know your subjects on a personal level. Think about what they're going through on the field/court/ice and then try to ask probing questions. I learned that if you do that, you'll get really good stuff and the questioner/questionee wall comes down and it's just two people talking.
T
Tom Petty
Guest
boots said:
boots - i said i'd give you the last word ... there it is.
P
Pulitzer Wannabe
Guest
hockeybeat said:
College football.
And it's not set up to get to know anybody. It's set up to prevent that.
Demeaning might not be the word I would use, but I can empathize with the frustration of not being able to connect with some (or even most) of the players on your beat, especially if it is a major college beat.
Sometimes, it's not as simple as, "just try harder."
The college I cover, you see each player for, maybe, 10 minutes a week, and it's always in the context of a 10-person media gang-bang. There are no one-on-ones. None. To the players, you are just a face in the crowd, no matter how many times you introduce yourself.
There are players I've covered for three years who wouldn't know my name. If they saw me in public, they'd recognize the face. But they wouldn't know the name.
The SIDs want it that way. And they go to great lengths to make it that way.
I don't think that's demeaning. Just wildly frustrating.
Sometimes, it's not as simple as, "just try harder."
The college I cover, you see each player for, maybe, 10 minutes a week, and it's always in the context of a 10-person media gang-bang. There are no one-on-ones. None. To the players, you are just a face in the crowd, no matter how many times you introduce yourself.
There are players I've covered for three years who wouldn't know my name. If they saw me in public, they'd recognize the face. But they wouldn't know the name.
The SIDs want it that way. And they go to great lengths to make it that way.
I don't think that's demeaning. Just wildly frustrating.
P
Pulitzer Wannabe
Guest
Some Guy said:
YES!!!!! EXACTLY!
Elliotte Friedman
Well-Known Member
Pulitzer,
There was a similar thread a few weeks ago about someone who wanted to leave sports. My reaction is similar: Are there other interesting stories that you want to pursue? If so, find a way to do them, now. And, if by doing them, you are recharged, then I'd say you're fine. Frustrated, which happens, but fine in the long run.
If it doesn't re-energize you, then it's time to find something new -- either a new beat or a new job.
There was a similar thread a few weeks ago about someone who wanted to leave sports. My reaction is similar: Are there other interesting stories that you want to pursue? If so, find a way to do them, now. And, if by doing them, you are recharged, then I'd say you're fine. Frustrated, which happens, but fine in the long run.
If it doesn't re-energize you, then it's time to find something new -- either a new beat or a new job.
Johnny Dangerously
Well-Known Member
There are times, covering a top-five college team, when I wonder if I'm the butt of some hidden-camera practical-joke show.
-- Drive an hour round-trip for a practice. We're supposed to be allowed in for our daily 15 minutes at 4 p.m. We're finally let in at 4:45 -- for 7 minutes.
-- Ask a fourth time if I can have 5 minutes with assistant coach after practice. "I'll check, but I don't think it'll be a problem." After practice, "I looked for him; I don't know where he is."
-- Led from one end of the football complex, where we were told to enter for media day, to the far corner of the indoor facility (walk of about 350 yards, for a courtesy "meal" of hot dogs and sausages that had flies landing on them. There is a door right near the food. We could have entered there. After meal, led outside (in 95-degree weather) back to the other end of the complex. Coaching staff found out we'd been in the forbidden areas earlier, so we had to walk outside (I guess so we wouldn't see state secrets) this time.
-- No such thing as a one-on-one interview with a player. Usually, 10 minutes max, with five-10 others encircling him.
-- Student sports information staffer taping every interview (supposedly for "learning purposes," but clearly to check the accuracy of what we write, and to keep tabs on what we're asking).
-- Having to stand right next to five or six portable toilets while we wait to go inside for our 15 minutes when practice is indoors. Coach comes out one day and does his business while we stand three feet away. Manager another time.
-- Players available Monday and Tuesday of game week. Coach available Sunday (to a select few), Monday (presser) and Wednesday.
-- Arriving at practice fields at 9 a.m. (media allowed in at 9:15) the day of a scrimmage. A staffer says, "Oh, they decided to do it in the stadium." By the time you drive there, park and walk to the right gate, you find out the seven minutes of pre-scrimmage practice open to the media is already over.
-- Ninety percent of the quotes you get are on the radio or Internet (or both) before you get back to the office. So much for fresh material.
Sometimes you think they're just ****ing with you. Other times you think they're trying to see how much they can **** with you.
Of course, they get pissed when you do the arrest stories and other "negative" stories, but they don't understand that they've made those easier to write than the features and get-to-know-so-and-so stories you'd like to write.
I feel everyone's pain and frustration. I'm not going to quibble with someone using the term demeaning. Sometimes you do feel like they're just laughing behind your back, saying "Can you believe they let us do this to them?"
That said, I work hard to work around all the roadblocks. I find other ways to get the story, or a different story. It's all you can do. When it's no longer worth it, I'll become a Wal-Mart greeter.
-- Drive an hour round-trip for a practice. We're supposed to be allowed in for our daily 15 minutes at 4 p.m. We're finally let in at 4:45 -- for 7 minutes.
-- Ask a fourth time if I can have 5 minutes with assistant coach after practice. "I'll check, but I don't think it'll be a problem." After practice, "I looked for him; I don't know where he is."
-- Led from one end of the football complex, where we were told to enter for media day, to the far corner of the indoor facility (walk of about 350 yards, for a courtesy "meal" of hot dogs and sausages that had flies landing on them. There is a door right near the food. We could have entered there. After meal, led outside (in 95-degree weather) back to the other end of the complex. Coaching staff found out we'd been in the forbidden areas earlier, so we had to walk outside (I guess so we wouldn't see state secrets) this time.
-- No such thing as a one-on-one interview with a player. Usually, 10 minutes max, with five-10 others encircling him.
-- Student sports information staffer taping every interview (supposedly for "learning purposes," but clearly to check the accuracy of what we write, and to keep tabs on what we're asking).
-- Having to stand right next to five or six portable toilets while we wait to go inside for our 15 minutes when practice is indoors. Coach comes out one day and does his business while we stand three feet away. Manager another time.
-- Players available Monday and Tuesday of game week. Coach available Sunday (to a select few), Monday (presser) and Wednesday.
-- Arriving at practice fields at 9 a.m. (media allowed in at 9:15) the day of a scrimmage. A staffer says, "Oh, they decided to do it in the stadium." By the time you drive there, park and walk to the right gate, you find out the seven minutes of pre-scrimmage practice open to the media is already over.
-- Ninety percent of the quotes you get are on the radio or Internet (or both) before you get back to the office. So much for fresh material.
Sometimes you think they're just ****ing with you. Other times you think they're trying to see how much they can **** with you.
Of course, they get pissed when you do the arrest stories and other "negative" stories, but they don't understand that they've made those easier to write than the features and get-to-know-so-and-so stories you'd like to write.
I feel everyone's pain and frustration. I'm not going to quibble with someone using the term demeaning. Sometimes you do feel like they're just laughing behind your back, saying "Can you believe they let us do this to them?"
That said, I work hard to work around all the roadblocks. I find other ways to get the story, or a different story. It's all you can do. When it's no longer worth it, I'll become a Wal-Mart greeter.
I'm not going to bother scrolling through all four pages here. The towel snapping on the first page was enough. But spnited is right, dude. If you don't like it, if you think it's demeaning, find something else to do, whether it's in or out of the industry.
Pulitzer: After further following the board, it sounds as though you want a different role vs. a different career. beat reporting is a whole different beast than being, for instance, general assignment, especially at a paper big enough to let you specialize in in-depth personality profiles. ... Maybe you're wanting to move a different direction, carve out a niche that fits you ... it's possible, no? But it always takes a long damn time to get there.
TomPetty's followup comments reinforce my point about the board -- and do shed light on the community of colleagues in the field ... i say "shed light," not define.
TomPetty's followup comments reinforce my point about the board -- and do shed light on the community of colleagues in the field ... i say "shed light," not define.
Everyone's had a moment (or 20) like this.
If you haven't, you will.
Just about everyone on these boards is devoted to the craft, to writing good stories, to finding that one small detail that makes your work stand out.
Problem is, there are an increasingly number of factors that make that process incredibly difficult and frustrating. Deadlines, declining readership, arrogant athletes, shorter stories, blogs, bitchy parents, low pay, layoffs, condescening coaches, idiot PR folks.
You can feel it while waiting 30 minutes on deadline for the football coach to finish his team meeting. You can feel it while waiting for the big-league pitcher to return to his locker, like he promised, only to see him hanging out in the training room, doing nothing. Or when the college SID makes you interview the quarterback in his office, with an assistant sitting right beside you.
Every reporter has obstacles. They make us work harder, and the payoff -- when we do get that magic detail, that key quote, etc -- is even greater. But those moments are practically endangered in this business, no matter how hard we work. At the pro level, athletes and organizations realize they no longer need the media. Many have gone to producing their own news on their personal Web sites (that's going to get worse.) And after all that, you come into work and there's an old man berating you because you forgot a comma in the third graf of this morning's story.
Yes, it's the greatest job in the world. But at times, it gets old.
I
If you haven't, you will.
Just about everyone on these boards is devoted to the craft, to writing good stories, to finding that one small detail that makes your work stand out.
Problem is, there are an increasingly number of factors that make that process incredibly difficult and frustrating. Deadlines, declining readership, arrogant athletes, shorter stories, blogs, bitchy parents, low pay, layoffs, condescening coaches, idiot PR folks.
You can feel it while waiting 30 minutes on deadline for the football coach to finish his team meeting. You can feel it while waiting for the big-league pitcher to return to his locker, like he promised, only to see him hanging out in the training room, doing nothing. Or when the college SID makes you interview the quarterback in his office, with an assistant sitting right beside you.
Every reporter has obstacles. They make us work harder, and the payoff -- when we do get that magic detail, that key quote, etc -- is even greater. But those moments are practically endangered in this business, no matter how hard we work. At the pro level, athletes and organizations realize they no longer need the media. Many have gone to producing their own news on their personal Web sites (that's going to get worse.) And after all that, you come into work and there's an old man berating you because you forgot a comma in the third graf of this morning's story.
Yes, it's the greatest job in the world. But at times, it gets old.
I
Pulitzer--how long have you been in the business?
I ask because if you're relatively new, maybe you haven't had that great moment when you know exactly why you got into this...and you know you're in the right place. If you've been around for a long time, and you still feel disconnected and demeaned, you owe it to yourself to find something more rewarding. It's your life.
I ask because if you're relatively new, maybe you haven't had that great moment when you know exactly why you got into this...and you know you're in the right place. If you've been around for a long time, and you still feel disconnected and demeaned, you owe it to yourself to find something more rewarding. It's your life.
