Is it "win over" or "win against"?

[93Devil]

I know I am going to take a world of heat over this next comment. Maybe it's because my copy editing prof in college dropped the ball on me, but I think AP Style is very overrated.

I know. I know. There has to be form and rules to a paper.

But...

No one ever bought a paper or ended a subscription because of AP Style.

They end subscriptions because of not getting scores in, screwing up facts, lousy headline, terrible art, having your entire paper being filled with AP copy, boring writing, poor grammar, spelling errors, not giving proper coverage and cheap printing presses and ink(you know, black finger tips).

They buy the paper for the converse of what was listed above.

 

[wickedwritah]

93, while I agree that readers (and most reporters, too) don't give two craps, I'm not a fan of letting anyone do anything they want, style-wise.

We need some standards as an industry, and AP has taken a lead (not lede ) on this.

 

[93Devil]

93, while I agree that readers (and most reporters, too) don't give two craps, I'm not a fan of letting anyone do anything they want, style-wise.

We need some standards as an industry, and AP has taken a lead (not lede ) on this.

I agree with everything you just typed.

Oh, I like lede over lead because I always read "lead" like it rhymes with "dead." It's just a quirk with me.

 

[Terence Mann]

I don't see where I was being flippant about AP style. I was citing the AP rule, which says "generally." I think someone here is trying to make a rule out of a personal preference, which I see happen often.

 

[93Devil]

I don't see where I was being flippant about AP style. I was citing the AP rule, which says "generally." I think someone here is trying to make a rule out of a personal preference, which I see happen often.

Wasn't directed at you. I was just referring to some people (not anyone here once again) that will grill you over style of a box score when the art next to the story is lousy or the headline is misleading.

I don't mean to rock the boat.

 

[wickedwritah]

I don't see where I was being flippant about AP style. I was citing the AP rule, which says "generally." I think someone here is trying to make a rule out of a personal preference, which I see happen often.

You're right, it's a personal preference on my part that comes from trying to live to the spirit of AP Style.

 

[ArnoldBabar]

The AP Stylebook on the word "over" simply says:

It generally refers to spatial relationships: The plane flew over the city.
More than is preferred with numerals: Their salaries went up more than $20 a week.

OK, so it should be "Springfield won 7-3 more than Shelbyville." Got it.

 

[93Devil]

I don't see where I was being flippant about AP style. I was citing the AP rule, which says "generally." I think someone here is trying to make a rule out of a personal preference, which I see happen often.

You're right, it's a personal preference on my part that comes from trying to live to the spirit of AP Style.

"live to the spirit of AP Style"

You need to make that a t-shirt for http://shirt.woot.com/

 

[Terence Mann]

I don't see where I was being flippant about AP style. I was citing the AP rule, which says "generally." I think someone here is trying to make a rule out of a personal preference, which I see happen often.

You're right, it's a personal preference on my part that comes from trying to live to the spirit of AP Style.

First, I was being too flippant about AP Style. Now I'm being too literal?

You and I disagree, obviously. You think the AP rule suggests not using "over" in this sports context. I disagree, and I think the word "generally" is an indicator of my position. AP would not have included the word in its rule if it expected a hard-line approach that covers every usage of the word.

 

[friend of a friend]

Have we heard from a copy editor on this one yet? (Besides me, that is.)

And Terence, if you wanna be that flippant in regard to AP Style, that's opening a whole can of worms.

Why not just misuse the word outright?

The boxer had a strong left hand, but figured he could outright his opponent.

nice

 

[Terence Mann]

Just went to the AP wire. First football story I found is about Navy, which plays Duke.

Compounding those problems is that Duke has all 11 starters back on offense.

The Blue Devils ended their 22-game losing streak with a 20-14 victory over Northwestern on Saturday. It was their first victory since a 40-14 win over Virginia Military Institute on Sept. 17, 2005. It was their first win over a division I-A team since a 16-13 victory over Clemson near the end of the 2004 season.

Let me know when they send out the corrected version replacing "over" with "against."

 

[friend of a friend]

Just because AP writes something doesn't make it right.

I take out the words "now" and "both" from AP copy frequently.

 

[wickedwritah]

Sad thing is, AP is the biggest violator of its own style!

 

[friend of a friend]

Sad thing is, AP is the biggest violator of its own style!

news conference, for example.

 

[Oz]

Have we heard from a copy editor on this one yet? (Besides me, that is.)

I'm with you on this. I always change it when I see "over" used incorrectly, whether it be "win over" or "over 100 people."

 

[Johnny Dangerously]

There are a lot of definitions of "over." If an old editor of mine was correct, the term in question on this thread is derived from the one below about wrestling:

Definitions of over on the Web:

* at or to a point across intervening space etc.; "come over and see us some time"; "over there"
* throughout an area; "he is known the world over"
* throughout a period of time; "stay over the weekend"
* beyond the top or upper surface or edge; forward from an upright position; "a roof that hangs over";
* all over: over the entire area; "the wallpaper was covered all over with flowers"; "she ached all over"; "everything was dusted over with a fine layer of soot"
* (cricket) the period during which a given number of balls (6 in England but 8 in Australia) are bowled at the batsman by one player from the other team from the same end of the pitch
* complete: having come or been brought to a conclusion; "the harvesting was complete"; "the affair is over, ended, finished"; "the abruptly terminated interview"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* In the sport of cricket an over is a series of six consecutive balls bowled by a single bowler. No bowler is allowed to bowl more than one consecutive over.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_(sport)

* In wrestling, the term over means making a wrestler look good. Example: "Tonight Chris Jericho is going over and Kane is going under." This means that Jericho is to win his match that night and the fans have a pop towards him, while Kane is to lose his match and is rousing up the crowd. When a wrestler makes his opponent look good, for example by taking spectacular bumps, he is said to put over his opponent.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over_(professional_wrestling)

* To bet over is to bet that the final total will exceed the total posted for betting purposes.
www.basketballfreesportspicks.com/glossary.shtml

* A sports bet in which the bettor guesses that the combined point total of two teams will be above a specified total.
www.sportingbetusa.com/4.html

* Improvement - An improvement which is not the highest and best use for the site on which it is placed, usually by reason of excess size or cost.
www.prestigehawaii.com/reterms.html

* The second and third elements are drawn vertically centred on one another and separated by a horizontal line. The third argument is SPF and will be drawn at the right hand end of the line.
www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/Pleuk/current/node157.html

* refers to a period of play. In First Class cricket in Britain this currently comprises six consecutive deliveries by one bowler from one end of the pitch.
www.hintsandthings.co.uk/games/cricket.htm

* A descriptive term to indicate a player’s position at the table in respect to one’s right hand opponent.
www.bridgeguys.com/OGlossary/GlossO.html

* The word over in Heraldry must never be taken to mean above, but upon.
www.heraldryclipart.com/do.html

* The command to a dog to move in an indicated direction.
www.essfta.org/htglossary.htm

* the past three years, the Palikur have intensified another type of intercommunity and interethnic communication: the evangelization of other indigenous peoples. The Palikur missionaries began evangelizing in the mid-1980s, when they introduced Pentecostalism among the Palikur of French Guiana. ...
www.socioambiental.org/pib/epienglish/palikur/contact.shtm

* Describes a cash drawer in which the audit strip shows there should be less cash in the drawer.
www.glencoe.com/sec/busadmin/marketing/dp/food_mktg/gloss.shtml

* (adjective) If a face is over with the crowd, it means that they cheer him. If a heel is over with the crowd, it means that they boo him. Regardless of whether he is a face or a heel, a wrestler’s main priority is to get over with the crowd. The more over a wrestler is, it makes sense that the promotion will find him more valuable and they will pay him more money. ...
www.kehoe73.freeserve.co.uk/infoterms.htm

* the word used to indicate the end of a voice transmission.
www.oldradios.co.nz/data/terminology2.htm

* The amount of pins that exceed a 200 game. In other words, bowling a 205 would be 5 over.
www.bowlingdialogue.com/glossary-o.html

 

[wickedwritah]

Another one that drives me up the wall is time, date, place. It's a pretty simple rule to follow, yet no one seems to do it.

 

[friend of a friend]

Another one that drives me up the wall is time, date, place. It's a pretty simple rule to follow, yet no one seems to do it.

Yup. I had to fix that in local copy yesterday.

 

[Terence Mann]

I heard a coach say, "I don't think we can outscore them, so our only chance to win is to play good defense."

By definition, if the team can't outscore the other, it has no chance to win.

Do you run that quote? It's improper use of "outscore," by the dictionary, but people allow it into copy, even outside of quotes.

 

[friend of a friend]

No, I wouldn't run that quote, at least not the first part.