Have you given up?

[pallister]

Ya, I'd have been pissed.

 

[BitterYoungMatador2]

This is a great thread.

I know I'm damn lucky to be where I'm at. But I'd like to think I've busted ass along the way and earned my position. Four years ago, I was desperately trying to find a job and took one basically doing below intern work. Now, I cover pro and college teams. I'm fortunate to be where I am, and many days, I love what I do.

I don't think I can be anything but than a writer/editor and dealing in sports. Neither does my wife. But those "other" days, where all you do is shovel **** for hours on end, only to get zero reward for your efforts, they take more and more out of me than they use to.

Last night was one of those nights. I almost walked out on my desk shift when my wife called to tell my our 2-year-old peed in his potty. Another milestone in his life I've missed and another moment where I wondered, and kind of wished I had a normal working life.

**** like that will wear on you more and more as you get older.

 

[Tom Petty]

This is a great thread.

I know I'm damn lucky to be where I'm at. But I'd like to think I've busted ass along the way and earned my position. Four years ago, I was desperately trying to find a job and took one basically doing below intern work. Now, I cover pro and college teams. I'm fortunate to be where I am, and many days, I love what I do.

I don't think I can be anything but than a writer/editor and dealing in sports. Neither does my wife. But those "other" days, where all you do is shovel **** for hours on end, only to get zero reward for your efforts, they take more and more out of me than they use to.

Last night was one of those nights. I almost walked out on my desk shift when my wife called to tell my our 2-year-old peed in his potty. Another milestone in his life I've missed and another moment where I wondered, and kind of wished I had a normal working life.

**** like that will wear on you more and more as you get older.

yup.

 

[SlickWillie71]

I've gotten out of the business twice and was lucky enough to get back in. I found out the hard way there's nothing else I'd rather do.

I left twice (once against my will). I had a chance to work at at financial firm making about $35K to start or get back into the field making about $27K. As much as the extra money tempted me, the thought of getting up at 630 am, wearing a suit and tie and dealing with the BS that could have come along with it couldn't compare to being able to cover sports and get paid for it.

It takes work and a little bit of luck to get where you want to go....I bounced from mid-sized to mid-sized for 16 years before finally getting the call to a major last spring. Once you get there, the trick is to remember what it took to get there and go full tilt on every assignment you get. I've wanted to work at a daily since I was 13 years old and consider myself blessed to no end that I can say I reached a childhood dream. There's nothing I've ever done professionally that comes close to what I do now.

 

[Damaramu]

One of my main problems right now, I think, is coming straight out of college and being the sports editor at a daily immediately.
In college I never had an internship, I just worked a beat. One beat....one team.

Now I'm writing headlines, designing the sports page, covering a main high school, a JUCO, and area schools by myself, and dealing with a publisher that tells me I'm a bad manager(despite the fact i have nobody to manage).

I think it was a lot for someone to be thrown right out of college into. And everytime I mess up it's a confidence killer. I know everyone makes mistakes but I've always been pretty hard on myself. So if punctuation on a headline is wrong I freak out and am like "Well all my readers think I'm a fool now." Despite the fact that 99% of them probably don't know that comma is in the wrong place.
And nobody at my rag wants to hang around and double check on me. I'm always the last one out since sporting events go so late into the night. I get back to the office at 10:30 after a basketball game and nobody is there. I have nobody to copy edit my story and nobody to double check my page and make sure all my headlines make sense.
Then the next day I get yelled at if something is wrong.

And since there's no other sports writers I'm constantly getting into arguments with the guy that does copy edit the stories I can get done during the day. He's very by the book and argues with me constantly about every little thing. "Why do you have to call it a board? It's a rebound." And it drives me insane.

That's what makes it hard for me to love this business. I honestly think if I was in a situation where I was on a staff and had someone teaching me and had someone to help my writing and other skills grow then I'd probably be happy. If it wasn't all just on me then it'd probably be better.

I feel like I was playing HS football and then on my way to college I somehow ended up in the NFL as a QB and I have the coach standing next to me telling me to run the team despite the fact I've never seen a playbook. And I'm not a QB, I'm a FB. I'm here to support not to run things! I cover my beat and help make the sports page better with my writing...I don't direct traffic.

So because of this I decided to find another sports writing gig this summer at a non-one man shop where I could grow and have someone to look over my shoulder, or someone to at least learn from. So I tell a friend at work. Someone I thought was a friend. He tells my publisher. My publisher blows a gasket and then demands to know what I want to do. He's shocked I don't think my current situation is paradise.
"I just don't understand what you want to do. What do you want to do?"

I then explained to him what I said above at wanting to learn from someone, not be at a one man shop, not have the weight of the world on my shoulders alone.

"So you want to go to a bigger paper?"

Well yeah.....but I shouldn't have to go to a bigger paper. We're a 7K paper. There's another 7K 50 miles from us that has a staff of 3 sports writers! I should've said "I just want to go to a non-Gatehouse or Morris owned paper."
The whole thing put a sour taste in my mouth. He basically made it sound like I was ungrateful and like I had the greatest job in the world and he just couldn't understand why I wanted to leave. Of course then he tried to act like there were one man shops everywhere except major metros.
"Well you know unless you end up somewhere like the KC Star you'll be in this same situation." Yeah bull****.


Sorry for the rant. That's basically my story about why I have trouble with the business right now. I already have shaky confidence and I'm put in a situation where when I screw up I'm hard on myself and it kills my confidence. But when I don't screw up and my confidence is fine I'm yelled at and beaten down and my confidence is shot more!

 

[Tom Petty]

how are things going now, ***?

 

[Damaramu]

About the same. This was all in the last week or two that this happened.

I think part of my problem is that I already had my confidence shot in college. My student paper was full of assholes. Everyone put everyone else's writing down. They'd do it to your face or behind your back. Me and like two other people didn't do it. The night deskers were the worst. They'd tell us that editing our stories was like editing a 3-year olds writing.

Obviously I'm a better writer than that or I wouldn't have a job. Unfortunately, it does play with your head. So when you're in a situation where failure is very likely and you have shaky confidence in your abilities.....well that's just not good for growth and development as a writer!

Not to mention my publisher is an a-hole that doesn't help.
The other day "So I see XX wasn't around to edit your stories the other day was he?"
"No."
"Haha. It shows."

Then again he's a nitwit that has no journalistic background. If I gave him one of those things from an entry level journalism class "There's 50 mistakes in this story. Find them." He'd probably find 15. He just likes to be an a-hole. He does it to other people. He's constantly telling our pressman (who's done this since 1976) that he doesn't know what he's doing.

Just not good for growth. Surely every paper isn't like this is it?

 

[GB-Hack]

No, of course not. As for me, I'm going to do this until they tell me I can't anymore. This job and industry brings me a wonderful sense of well-being, no matter the hours or the pay.

 

[Tom Petty]

About the same. This was all in the last week or two that this happened.

I think part of my problem is that I already had my confidence shot in college. My student paper was full of assholes. Everyone put everyone else's writing down. They'd do it to your face or behind your back. Me and like two other people didn't do it. The night deskers were the worst. They'd tell us that editing our stories was like editing a 3-year olds writing.

Obviously I'm a better writer than that or I wouldn't have a job. Unfortunately, it does play with your head. So when you're in a situation where failure is very likely and you have shaky confidence in your abilities.....well that's just not good for growth and development as a writer!

Not to mention my publisher is an a-hole that doesn't help.
The other day "So I see XX wasn't around to edit your stories the other day was he?"
"No."
"Haha. It shows."

Then again he's a nitwit that has no journalistic background. If I gave him one of those things from an entry level journalism class "There's 50 mistakes in this story. Find them." He'd probably find 15. He just likes to be an a-hole. He does it to other people. He's constantly telling our pressman (who's done this since 1976) that he doesn't know what he's doing.

Just not good for growth. Surely every paper isn't like this is it?

*** - since you asked, here's my experience: i've worked for several papers, alongside several co-workers. i've come to the conclusion that journalism is a mega draw for know-it-alls who believe they have the answer for nearly every question in life. journalists also tend to own above average IQs and generally are pretty good people.

those secure in their own abilities tend to make fun of their co-workers' writing in an attempt to bond, especially in sports for some reason. a large percentage of those who engage in that activity, also don't mind other folks giving their writing a verbal ****ing as well.

since i've become an editor, i've refused to make fun of anyone's writing because it just isn't professional. but when i was a writer, god damn i was merciless, but only with those who'd been in the business for a few years and were comfortable with their own product.

on the other hand, though, there's a few pricks out there in every shop who feel better about their lots in life if they can demean someone else's work. and yeah, it happens quite a bit.

as far as publishers go, here's the trick: get to a paper large enough where you never have to see or talk to the bastards.

if you're going to survive, you'll have to learn to trust one or two people who will help you grow as a writer and then extend your middle finger to the rest of the bunch. read that last line one more time ... it's the best advice i can give.

 

[Piotr Rasputin]

Let me apologize for the venom in my rant. Seriously, I do mean it.

Just the gloom and doom (and no, I'm not blind to way print is going) astounds me at times. It just bothers me to watch good talent leaving what they've always dreamed of doing.

Let's not overlook the fact that dreams generally end. You wake up in the morning, the dream is over. Or you chronicle the exploits of others in sporting pursuits for a decade or two, and then you've had enough. For five, 10 or 20 years, you enjoyed it enough to put up with all the sacrifices required. And the industry allowed you to hang onto some dignity.

Then one day, you're 20 years in to doing this and you start to feel a little dumb for chronicling the athletic deeds of people now somewhat or even much younger than you. The lack of payoff in terms of money or growth starts to bug you, and the sacrifices seem to increase, not lessen, the longer you stick with it. Maybe you have kids yourself and you realize that the great history and math students deserve the kudos as much or more than the jocks. Now overlay that with the panic of bottom-line obsessed managers, and the disrespect they're all too happy to dump on you and your colleagues.

At that point -- I feel bad for anyone who truly believes they "were born to do this and only this." That really is selling yourself short.

One of the best posts I have ever seen here.

High quality.

 

[Joe Williams]

Let me apologize for the venom in my rant. Seriously, I do mean it.

Just the gloom and doom (and no, I'm not blind to way print is going) astounds me at times. It just bothers me to watch good talent leaving what they've always dreamed of doing.

Let's not overlook the fact that dreams generally end. You wake up in the morning, the dream is over. Or you chronicle the exploits of others in sporting pursuits for a decade or two, and then you've had enough. For five, 10 or 20 years, you enjoyed it enough to put up with all the sacrifices required. And the industry allowed you to hang onto some dignity.

Then one day, you're 20 years in to doing this and you start to feel a little dumb for chronicling the athletic deeds of people now somewhat or even much younger than you. The lack of payoff in terms of money or growth starts to bug you, and the sacrifices seem to increase, not lessen, the longer you stick with it. Maybe you have kids yourself and you realize that the great history and math students deserve the kudos as much or more than the jocks. Now overlay that with the panic of bottom-line obsessed managers, and the disrespect they're all too happy to dump on you and your colleagues.

At that point -- I feel bad for anyone who truly believes they "were born to do this and only this." That really is selling yourself short.

One of the best posts I have ever seen here.

High quality.

Aw shucks, Pete. I'm blushin' :-[

 

[Barsuk]

*** - since you asked, here's my experience: i've worked for several papers, alongside several co-workers. i've come to the conclusion that journalism is a mega draw for know-it-alls who believe they have the answer for nearly every question in life. journalists also tend to own above average IQs and generally are pretty good people.

those secure in their own abilities tend to make fun of their co-workers' writing in an attempt to bond, especially in sports for some reason. a large percentage of those who engage in that activity, also don't mind other folks giving their writing a verbal ****ing as well.

since i've become an editor, i've refused to make fun of anyone's writing because it just isn't professional. but when i was a writer, god damn i was merciless, but only with those who'd been in the business for a few years and were comfortable with their own product.

on the other hand, though, there's a few pricks out there in every shop who feel better about their lots in life if they can demean someone else's work. and yeah, it happens quite a bit.

as far as publishers go, here's the trick: get to a paper large enough where you never have to see or talk to the bastards.

if you're going to survive, you'll have to learn to trust one or two people who will help you grow as a writer and then extend your middle finger to the rest of the bunch. read that last line one more time ... it's the best advice i can give.

God damn if I don't want to work for you more than anything right now, tomas.

 

[silentbob]

Deadends come at different points.

I spent 10 years getting to a destination paper. Now that I'm here -- one of the 10 largest in the country -- I make a little over $50,000 covering the biggest teams in town.

In a big city with 2 kids that doesnt go very far, which means here I am, at the top of my profession, living paycheck to paycheck. I love my job. One of the highlights of my day is reading the morning paper. But at some point you have to ask yourself: What is best for my family? With the industry tanking, I really don't see my salary jumping another 10 grand over the next seven, eight or nine years. And last I checked, the world's not getting any cheaper.

Doesnt leave one with a lot of options.

 

[imjustagirl]

Deadends come at different points.

I spent 10 years getting to a destination paper. Now that I'm here -- one of the 10 largest in the country -- I make a little over $50,000 covering the biggest teams in town.

In a big city with 2 kids that doesnt go very far, which means here I am, at the top of my profession, living paycheck to paycheck. I love my job. One of the highlights of my day is reading the morning paper. But at some point you have to ask yourself: What is best for my family? With the industry tanking, I really don't see my salary jumping another 10 grand over the next seven, eight or nine years. And last I checked, the world's not getting any cheaper.

Doesnt leave one with a lot of options.

But what other field can you get into where you'll start at over $50K?

 

[Moderator1]

About the same. This was all in the last week or two that this happened.

I think part of my problem is that I already had my confidence shot in college. My student paper was full of assholes. Everyone put everyone else's writing down. They'd do it to your face or behind your back. Me and like two other people didn't do it. The night deskers were the worst. They'd tell us that editing our stories was like editing a 3-year olds writing.

Obviously I'm a better writer than that or I wouldn't have a job. Unfortunately, it does play with your head. So when you're in a situation where failure is very likely and you have shaky confidence in your abilities.....well that's just not good for growth and development as a writer!

Not to mention my publisher is an a-hole that doesn't help.
The other day "So I see XX wasn't around to edit your stories the other day was he?"
"No."
"Haha. It shows."

Then again he's a nitwit that has no journalistic background. If I gave him one of those things from an entry level journalism class "There's 50 mistakes in this story. Find them." He'd probably find 15. He just likes to be an a-hole. He does it to other people. He's constantly telling our pressman (who's done this since 1976) that he doesn't know what he's doing.

Just not good for growth. Surely every paper isn't like this is it?

*** - since you asked, here's my experience: i've worked for several papers, alongside several co-workers. i've come to the conclusion that journalism is a mega draw for know-it-alls who believe they have the answer for nearly every question in life. journalists also tend to own above average IQs and generally are pretty good people.

those secure in their own abilities tend to make fun of their co-workers' writing in an attempt to bond, especially in sports for some reason. a large percentage of those who engage in that activity, also don't mind other folks giving their writing a verbal ****ing as well.

since i've become an editor, i've refused to make fun of anyone's writing because it just isn't professional. but when i was a writer, god damn i was merciless, but only with those who'd been in the business for a few years and were comfortable with their own product.

on the other hand, though, there's a few pricks out there in every shop who feel better about their lots in life if they can demean someone else's work. and yeah, it happens quite a bit.

as far as publishers go, here's the trick: get to a paper large enough where you never have to see or talk to the bastards.

if you're going to survive, you'll have to learn to trust one or two people who will help you grow as a writer and then extend your middle finger to the rest of the bunch. read that last line one more time ... it's the best advice i can give.

Serious question, not trying to be an ass: How big a paper does it have to be? I just left a 200K (well, not that long ago - let's call it a 180K). Decent sized joint. I talked to the publisher more than I did the ME. Not complaining. I like the publisher. Just wondering at what level the pub. is beyond reach or makes him/herself that way.

 

[forever_town]

Deadends come at different points.

I spent 10 years getting to a destination paper. Now that I'm here -- one of the 10 largest in the country -- I make a little over $50,000 covering the biggest teams in town.

In a big city with 2 kids that doesnt go very far, which means here I am, at the top of my profession, living paycheck to paycheck. I love my job. One of the highlights of my day is reading the morning paper. But at some point you have to ask yourself: What is best for my family? With the industry tanking, I really don't see my salary jumping another 10 grand over the next seven, eight or nine years. And last I checked, the world's not getting any cheaper.

Doesnt leave one with a lot of options.

But what other field can you get into where you'll start at over $50K?

I.T.

 

[Tom Petty]

*** - since you asked, here's my experience: i've worked for several papers, alongside several co-workers. i've come to the conclusion that journalism is a mega draw for know-it-alls who believe they have the answer for nearly every question in life. journalists also tend to own above average IQs and generally are pretty good people.

those secure in their own abilities tend to make fun of their co-workers' writing in an attempt to bond, especially in sports for some reason. a large percentage of those who engage in that activity, also don't mind other folks giving their writing a verbal ****ing as well.

since i've become an editor, i've refused to make fun of anyone's writing because it just isn't professional. but when i was a writer, god damn i was merciless, but only with those who'd been in the business for a few years and were comfortable with their own product.

on the other hand, though, there's a few pricks out there in every shop who feel better about their lots in life if they can demean someone else's work. and yeah, it happens quite a bit.

as far as publishers go, here's the trick: get to a paper large enough where you never have to see or talk to the bastards.

if you're going to survive, you'll have to learn to trust one or two people who will help you grow as a writer and then extend your middle finger to the rest of the bunch. read that last line one more time ... it's the best advice i can give.

God damn if I don't want to work for you more than anything right now, tomas.

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

Let me apologize for the venom in my rant. Seriously, I do mean it.

Just the gloom and doom (and no, I'm not blind to way print is going) astounds me at times. It just bothers me to watch good talent leaving what they've always dreamed of doing.

At that point -- I feel bad for anyone who truly believes they "were born to do this and only this." That really is selling yourself short.

Judge Smails would disagree.

 

[Tom Petty]

About the same. This was all in the last week or two that this happened.

I think part of my problem is that I already had my confidence shot in college. My student paper was full of assholes. Everyone put everyone else's writing down. They'd do it to your face or behind your back. Me and like two other people didn't do it. The night deskers were the worst. They'd tell us that editing our stories was like editing a 3-year olds writing.

Obviously I'm a better writer than that or I wouldn't have a job. Unfortunately, it does play with your head. So when you're in a situation where failure is very likely and you have shaky confidence in your abilities.....well that's just not good for growth and development as a writer!

Not to mention my publisher is an a-hole that doesn't help.
The other day "So I see XX wasn't around to edit your stories the other day was he?"
"No."
"Haha. It shows."

Then again he's a nitwit that has no journalistic background. If I gave him one of those things from an entry level journalism class "There's 50 mistakes in this story. Find them." He'd probably find 15. He just likes to be an a-hole. He does it to other people. He's constantly telling our pressman (who's done this since 1976) that he doesn't know what he's doing.

Just not good for growth. Surely every paper isn't like this is it?

*** - since you asked, here's my experience: i've worked for several papers, alongside several co-workers. i've come to the conclusion that journalism is a mega draw for know-it-alls who believe they have the answer for nearly every question in life. journalists also tend to own above average IQs and generally are pretty good people.

those secure in their own abilities tend to make fun of their co-workers' writing in an attempt to bond, especially in sports for some reason. a large percentage of those who engage in that activity, also don't mind other folks giving their writing a verbal ****ing as well.

since i've become an editor, i've refused to make fun of anyone's writing because it just isn't professional. but when i was a writer, god damn i was merciless, but only with those who'd been in the business for a few years and were comfortable with their own product.

on the other hand, though, there's a few pricks out there in every shop who feel better about their lots in life if they can demean someone else's work. and yeah, it happens quite a bit.

as far as publishers go, here's the trick: get to a paper large enough where you never have to see or talk to the bastards.

if you're going to survive, you'll have to learn to trust one or two people who will help you grow as a writer and then extend your middle finger to the rest of the bunch. read that last line one more time ... it's the best advice i can give.

Serious question, not trying to be an ass: How big a paper does it have to be? I just left a 200K (well, not that long ago - let's call it a 180K). Decent sized joint. I talked to the publisher more than I did the ME. Not complaining. I like the publisher. Just wondering at what level the pub. is beyond reach or makes him/herself that way.

again, moddy, that's from my experience. i'm sure it has plenty to do with personalities as well.

but, from my experience, pubs at larger circs spend more time working the business end of the game and/or more time on the golf course.

 

[Some Guy]

About the same. This was all in the last week or two that this happened.

I think part of my problem is that I already had my confidence shot in college. My student paper was full of assholes. Everyone put everyone else's writing down. They'd do it to your face or behind your back. Me and like two other people didn't do it. The night deskers were the worst. They'd tell us that editing our stories was like editing a 3-year olds writing.

Obviously I'm a better writer than that or I wouldn't have a job. Unfortunately, it does play with your head. So when you're in a situation where failure is very likely and you have shaky confidence in your abilities.....well that's just not good for growth and development as a writer!

Not to mention my publisher is an a-hole that doesn't help.
The other day "So I see XX wasn't around to edit your stories the other day was he?"
"No."
"Haha. It shows."

Then again he's a nitwit that has no journalistic background. If I gave him one of those things from an entry level journalism class "There's 50 mistakes in this story. Find them." He'd probably find 15. He just likes to be an a-hole. He does it to other people. He's constantly telling our pressman (who's done this since 1976) that he doesn't know what he's doing.

Just not good for growth. Surely every paper isn't like this is it?

*** - since you asked, here's my experience: i've worked for several papers, alongside several co-workers. i've come to the conclusion that journalism is a mega draw for know-it-alls who believe they have the answer for nearly every question in life. journalists also tend to own above average IQs and generally are pretty good people.

those secure in their own abilities tend to make fun of their co-workers' writing in an attempt to bond, especially in sports for some reason. a large percentage of those who engage in that activity, also don't mind other folks giving their writing a verbal ****ing as well.

since i've become an editor, i've refused to make fun of anyone's writing because it just isn't professional. but when i was a writer, god damn i was merciless, but only with those who'd been in the business for a few years and were comfortable with their own product.

on the other hand, though, there's a few pricks out there in every shop who feel better about their lots in life if they can demean someone else's work. and yeah, it happens quite a bit.

as far as publishers go, here's the trick: get to a paper large enough where you never have to see or talk to the bastards.

if you're going to survive, you'll have to learn to trust one or two people who will help you grow as a writer and then extend your middle finger to the rest of the bunch. read that last line one more time ... it's the best advice i can give.

Serious question, not trying to be an ass: How big a paper does it have to be? I just left a 200K (well, not that long ago - let's call it a 180K). Decent sized joint. I talked to the publisher more than I did the ME. Not complaining. I like the publisher. Just wondering at what level the pub. is beyond reach or makes him/herself that way.

again, moddy, that's from my experience. i'm sure it has plenty to do with personalities as well.

but, from my experience, pubs at larger circs spend more time working the business end of the game and/or more time on the golf course.

Frankly, I'm not even sure of our publisher's first name. I think we got a new one recently. I don't go up in that ivory tower.