Grad school?

[Double Down]

But, again, then why did all the Pulitzer winners go to big-name UG or graduate programs?

This has come up before and I don't think it's true, and I don't think it's supported by facts. Are we talking strictly about Pulitzer winners? Pulitzer winners for feature writing? Do National Magazine Awards count? Are we talking about the glory days roster of SI? Show me, with actual names, who the Pulitzer winners are, or who the magazine writers are that everyone admires, who went to big-time undergrad or grad programs? You can name some, certainly, but I can name just as many who did not.

 

[Jones]

A proviso: I'm not in any way including myself in DD's or Waylon's list of edumacated magazine writers.

However, before I became a writer, I went straight from my undergrad (PoliSci) into graduate school (Urban Planning). Got my Masters, and then fell into writing, kind of by accident.

Although I'm now at a magazine, my schooling had absolutely zero to do with it. I'm not sure my boss knows I have my Masters or even cares whether I have any university education at all. We've certainly never discussed it. I don't know about any of the other writers at Esquire, but the fact that I don't tells me that it never comes up with them, either.

If you can write, you can write. The paper on the wall doesn't much matter -- I think especially with magazines. I know magazine writers who've spent time in prison, who worked sling jobs, who came in from newspapers (like I did), and yes, I'm sure a few did grad. school. But that's not why they write for magazines. They write for magazines because they can deep throat fat **** to the hilt.

All that being said, like you, dud, I want to teach someday. So I'm glad I have my Masters. I've never used it even once in any practical sense, although I think I've used some of the research and writing skills I developed. But I like having it in hand. It's almost like a parachute I keep tucked away, just in case I ever need to bail from the written world and don't want to end up in a soup line.

So, I guess I'm neither encouraging you or discouraging you. (That's helpful, isn't it?) You don't need a grad. degree to find a job in magazines; it also probably won't hurt, especially if you go to someplace like Columbia, and it might open some doors later on.

True story: After I got my Urban Planning degree, and before I got my newspaper job, I applied to Columbia to do a Masters in Journalism. (School was just a way to postpone real life for me.) I got in, and I got a nice letter saying that I had a scholarship, too. Yippee!

Turns out, the scholarship was for $2,500. The cost of school and a year in NYC was estimated to be $40,000. I nearly went anyway, swallowing the debt, mostly because my Mom thought it would be a great year for me, and I think it would have been, too. Even after I got offered the job at the newspaper, I still nearly went, until my future editor pulled me aside and said, "Why would you go $40,000 in the hole to get a job like the one that you're already getting right now?"

I didn't have a good answer.

But I still wonder what that year would have been like and how different my life would be had I gone.

Usually, though, I wonder most about what girls I might have humped.

 

[slappy4428]

They would have been proveably, demonstrably average chicks, 18-35

 

[ChmDogg]

I went to grad school and got my Master's in magazine and newspaper journalism, so let me chime in.

I got my undergrad degree in broadcast journalism, but never pursued a job in that after college. After three years of working corporate jobs, I had some money (and a good social life), but I ABSOLUTELY dreaded the five days a week I had to go to work.

Knowing that I loved writing, I decided on being a sports writer (insert pay joke here). Anyway, after three years out school and with no clips or experience, it was pretty clear to me that getting a sports job would be nearly impossible. So, I decided on grad school as the way to get my foot in the door in my career field.

The move paid off for me. I had a couple good internships and am now on my second job in just under two years in the field. I'm glad I went. I learned how to write. I made a good number of networking contacts (vastly underrated bonus). And I had a year away from the grind of working.

True, I grabbed some pretty large debt (I went to one of the "Big Boys"). But for me, I didn't see another way to get on the fast track to my career. I think if a person's on the outside of the career field looking in, so to speak, then grad school is a viable option.

But if a person is already established at a paper and progressing up the chain, I can't honestly say that it will improve your lot that much. I don't think the few people who I went to school with who already had experience really made monster jumps after their master's.

Hope that helps.

 

[jgmacg]

Anybody gutty enough to pun the handle Young Effin' Dud needs little help from me.

Jones and Double Down and others have already made my case: If you can write, you can write. If you can't, no sheepskin can make it so.

Any honest writing teacher will tell you: I can take the talent you already have and refine it. I cannot imbue you with a talent you do not have.

A Masters' will be a help in the future if you choose to teach. It will buy you time to read what you need to read - which is everything. It will, I hope, inspire you. It will introduce you to people who care very passionately about our work. A few of whom, I hope again, will become your mentors and defenders and advocates for life. Given your undergrad major, it will help broaden the range of your tradecraft. And if you can get a fellowship or an assistantship, it needn't put you into debt for a decade, either.

Like Jonesy, I fell into this, and my personal version of events can't be used to reverse-engineer a career strategy. A lot of it was dumb luck, certainly, but I moved forward entirely on the strength of what I was publishing. I didn't complete an undergrad degree. Nor did I complete the MFA program I was invited to join. Even when I was in the MFA program, I was publishing all the time, because I was writing and submitting all the time. But I was lucky enough in my stint there to meet some great writers - a few of whom have since become good friends. At least two others became my rabbis, men with whom I wrestle the mysteries of the written word to this day. So I wouldn't swap that graduate experience for anything. Nor could I have remained in it another moment.

For what it's worth, I have freelanced my entire adult life - only occasionally starving while writing things I was mostly very proud of - and at the age of 49, I can honestly say that I've never been asked for a resume; nor has anyone even asked if I attended college. In fact, I wound up teaching at one of the schools where I'd done some of my graduate and undergraduate work.

I understand that the business has changed, though, with its new emphasis on the right education from the right institution and the right internship at the right place at the right time. That's a system into which I have no insight.

Narrative longform writing is an odder fit still for that system - because the outlets are so few, with newspapers grudging you every linear inch and good magazines so few and far between.

The truth is, a writing career is a terrible crapshoot. Always has been. But if you're prepared for that - if you're prepared to write seven days a week without fail because that's how you become better; if you're prepared to honor the work with your unwavering devotion to it; if you're prepared to starve a little; to suffer your solitude; to have a lot of freedom and no security - then you can't make a wrong decision. Good luck.

 

[Jones]

Well, now, ****, if that isn't a closing graf.

 

[Double Down]

Mercy. jgmacg, as usual, takes that pitch and knocks not just into McCovey Cove, but halfway to Hawaii. Thank you sir, as always, for your insight, wit and wisdom.


And because WaylonJennings asked, I did some research. Since the discussion was originally about long-form narrative writing, here are the Pulitzer Prize winners for feature writing since 1995 (furthest the Pulitzer web site goes back), and their education, according to their biographies. Notice the diversity in degrees. Hardly just the Ivys and Columbias, Northwesterns, and Missouris of the world.

1995 -- Ron Suskind, Wall Street Journal. Bachelors in government from UVA, masters in journalism from Columbia.

1996 -- Rick Bragg, NYT. Didn't go to college.

1997 -- Lisa Pollack, Balt Sun. Bachelors in English Lit from American U, masters in journalism from Northwestern.

1998 -- Tom French, St. Pete Times. Bachelors in journalism from Indiana.

1999 -- Angelo Henderson, WSJ. Bachelors in journalism from University of Kentucky.

2000 -- J.R. Moehringer, LAT. Bachelors in history from Yale.

2001 -- Tom Hallman, Oregonian. Bachelors in journalism from Drake University.

2002 -- Barry Seigel, LAT. Bachelors from Pamona college, masters from Columbia J-school.

2003 -- Sonia Nazario, LAT. Bachelors from Williams college, master in history from Berkley.

2004 -- No award.

2005 -- Julia Keller, Chi Trib. Bachelors and master from Marshal, doctorate from Ohio State.

2006 -- Jim Sheeler, Rocky Mountain News. Bachelor in journalism from Colorado State.

2007 -- Andrea Elliot, NYT. Bachelors in comparative lit from Occidental College, masters in Journalism from Columbia.

And if we're talking about magazine writers, I think it's even more in favor of the non "stud" schools. Just to rattle off most of my favorite writers...

Gary Smith -- LaSalle.
Charles Pierce -- Marquette.
Rick Reilly -- Colorado.
Tom Verducci -- Penn State.
Frank DeFord -- Princeton.
Bill Nack -- Columbia (I think).
Michael Paterniti -- Michigan.
Jeff MacGregor -- a little Ohio State, a little Yale.
Chris Jones -- Two fine Canadian colleges I can neither remember nor likely pronouce, eh.
John Ed Bradley -- LSU.
Steve Rushin -- Marquette.
Tim Layden -- Williams College.
Jack McCallum -- Muhlenberg College.
Scott Raab -- I don't even know if he went to college, and I think he might have spent some time in prison. (Although my sincere apologies if that's untrue.)
Gay Talese -- University of Alabama.
Joseph Mitchell -- University of North Carolina.
Chuck Klosterman -- University of North Dakota.
Dave Eggers -- University of Illinois.
Elwood Reid -- Michigan.
Hank Stuever -- Loyola (New Orleans).

Throw in Tom Junod, S.L. Price, Richard Hoffer (guys I don't know, or can't find a college for) and that's pretty much everyone I either wanted to be before I got into journalism, or somebody whose work still inspires me today. It's quite the potpourri of educations, and very few of them are Ivy Leaguers or alumni from one of the country's journalism factories.

I still believe anyone can go anywhere and do anything if they have the talent. Those who enter the big, bad world of journalism with a degree from a fancy school may have a head start, certainly, but in the end, a combination of talent and ambition wins out. If you have talent and ambition and degree from Columbia or Medill, then you might have hit the jackpot. But the talent and ambition are more important than the degree by a long shot.

 

[Norrin Radd]

I would add USC to that list of schools with local mafia . . . .

A friend always tells me he went to grad school "to fill in the gaps in my skill set." If you're not pursuing something like teaching where that extra piece of paper is key, then I would say you should stay put for a while.

Gigs for youngsters at 90,000 circulation papers don't necessarily grow on trees. With a paper that size, it is likely you'll have the chance to learn a lot while not getting lost in the shuffle as you might at a larger paper. If grad school in journalism is there to get some swanky job or gain experience, you should stay put. The experience you gain there will be valuable, and if you decide to attend school in a few years, your grades will no longer matter thanks to the professional experience. If you itch to go to school that badly, I hope you find one near you so you can continue picking up experience.

Good luck to you.

 

[OrangeGrad]

Best grad school professor I had told the class, "You don't go to school to learn **** you already know." Keep that in mind if you've been in the business for a while.

 

[IGotQuestions]

I know 3 writers who are among the best in the country at what they do, and none of them have college degrees. As has been written over and over here, if you can write, you can write, and you'll get a good job. If you can't, you can't.

 

[Double Down]

So now it's a "majority," Waylon? Do we actually have to count them up? And what's the criteria? We've gone from "the Ivy leagues" to "some of the biggest name schools in the country." You keep moving the goalposts on me. What about my list of magazine writers you ignored because it didn't support your theory? Do they not count?

 

[IGotQuestions]

Fact is, you don't need an advanced degree in journalism to excel in this industry - the Pulitzer is an extremely small sampling of us (less than 1 percent?), and there is a good lot who would argue you don't even need a college education to be as much of a kick-ass reporter/writer as the guy with the master's.

 

[forever_town]

(I)n all the hiring proceedings I've been involved with, I've never once seen a person's alma mater made into an issue. We've hired people from huge schools and tiny schools and schools nobody has ever heard of. If you're clips are good enough, you'll get a look.

I don't know about anyone else, but that's how I do it. I hired a guy from a small college people probably only heard of because they're a mid-major powerhouse once, and one of the people to whom I sent an e-mail announcing that I'd already made my hiring decision went to a big name J-school nearby.

Even though the guy I hired later got a job making nearly twice as much as he was getting at my shop, I *still* believe I hired the right guy. He did more here in two and a half months than some people do in much longer tenures.

 

[IGotQuestions]

Post-grad is not anymore beneficial if you're reporting or designing - your portfolio and resume will dictate that. Even an editor, nothing more than a bachelor's is necessary - I know of 1 out of 20-something editors at my shop that have more than a bachelor's. And we're in a multi-college town. If anything, the one thing I've noticed is that kids from certain big-name schools walk with an attitude, act like they're owed a good job out of college, whether or not they can write/report well. A college kid once told me, while we were covering the same event, that he expected his degree to land him at least $45,000 out of college - at a newspaper. This despite his school not having a J program and him only having written for his school paper for less than 2 years, with no internships. I replied, "$45,000? Really? Good luck in that quest." He gave me a look like I was from Mars, and his snot-nosed facial tic at my response was hilarious.

I got off the trail. Sorry.

 

[young effin dud]

The list of Pulitzer winners does seem to indicate that there is much to be gained from attending an elite graduate program. Or maybe just Columbia. While the range of backgrounds and paths to the upper echelon of journalists is wide, the fact that so many come from Columbia certainly says something. Columbia admits 247 students every year, some of whom choose not to attend, some of whom do not complete the degree, and many of whom specialize in broadcast journalism or new media. When you compare that to the number of people who enter the field from every other school in the country, the fact that Columbia produces so many of the best becomes even more impressive.

jgmacg, in addition to inspiring the hell out of everyone who read that post, really
touched on something I think can be most beneficial about grad school. Mentors.

My career goals are stupid. They're the idealistic dreams of a naive 22-year old who has been told one too many times that he has talent, mostly by people who don't have a clue. My self-expectations are unfair, far-reaching and frankly, unrealistic.

But I'm completely obsessed with them.

So if I'm going to stay in this business; if I'm going to sacrifice comfort and convenience to chase after some wild dream, then I need to know that I have what it takes. I think time spent at graduate school, in an elite program, can give me that answer. The world-class journalists who teach at Columbia, Medill, Berkeley and Mizzou can never give me talent. But they can tell me whether or not I already have it, and if I do, they can refine it.

If I can go to one of those schools, and I can sit and listen to a narrative genius explain why he or she shredded my copy, and then hear that same person tell me that I've got the goods, then I'll write until my fingers bleed. But if the consensus among those professors is that I'm just average or slightly above average, then I'll be a 24-year old with plenty of other career options and a master's degree from an elite institution.

Is that impractical? Yeah, I guess it is. Is it what I need? I think it just might be. But again, I'm just an idealistic punk kid.

 

[Double Down]

Give 'em hell, Young effin dud. And remember, when you catch on with the student paper, this is the most important advice I can pass along: Get three beers in the arts editor, and you'll never go home alone.

 

[Some Guy]

Give 'em hell, Young effin dud. And remember, when you catch on with the student paper, this is the most important advice I can pass along: Get three beers in the arts editor, and you'll never go home alone.

Shoot. Our arts editor only needed one beer. She must have been easy.

 

[BYUSportsGuy]

Just read this thread, as I am trying to decide between staying at my shop or going to one of the two schools I got into: Indiana and the Cronkite School at Arizona State. Does anyone know how this all went down for young effin dude?

Also, I understand there will be a lot of people telling me to stay at my shop, and I understand this, but if anyone can tell me about the programs at IU and ASU (especially if there might be someone out there that actually did the grad program), PM me and let me know...