Grad school?

[young effin dud]

Longtime lurker, first-time poster here.

Yes, I'm actually considering graduate school...for journalism. I've devoured every other related thread I could find by using a search, but I thought I'd ask some questions of my own. I graduated last December and have been covering preps and outdoors for a 90,000-circulation daily since then. I'm considering a Master's in journalism for several reasons.

1. I'd like to move into magazines (not necessarily in sports -- I have no delusions of a degree from Columbia or Mizzou delivering me straight to SI). I'm probably getting married soon, and I would much rather work typical daytime hours with predictable days off. Also, I love long-form features and narrative stories, and I would love any job that allows me to write that type of story, even if it's not in sports. So if I went to j-school (at least one of the prestigious ones), I would specialize in magazine writing/editing.

2. I think I could really learn something. My undergrad degree is in anthropology (no j-program at my small school), and while I do have great editors and writers around me right now, I think I could really benefit from someone ripping apart my stuff over and over again.

3. If I fail in this business, or if the whole industry just crumbles around me, then I'll just get the Ph.D. and become an academic. Both my parents are faculty members at universities, and it's a pretty sweet life if you have tenure. Even if I am successful, I think I'll want to teach at some point. I would love to teach at a small school like the one I attended, where I could give students the practical advice I never got.

Obviously, given the state of the business at this point in time, this may seem crazy to some, and I spent all four years of college debating whether or not entering this business was a risk I wanted to take. But I've decided that I just have to give this whole journalism thing a shot, and I have to do whatever it takes to succeed. This has been my dream since middle school, and I just can't live the rest of my life knowing I didn't do everything I could to be a success in this field. If after ten years or so, I feel like I'm stuck, then I'll seriously consider a career change. But until then, I've got to pursue a career in this field. All that said, I'm still not sure if j-school is the best option for me right now, and that's why I'm looking for advice.

At this point, these are my top choices.
1a. Berkeley -- outstanding magazine faculty
1b. Mizzou -- hands-on program, Mizzou mafia
3. Columbia -- it's Columbia
4. Northwestern -- great magazine publishing program and very good international journalism program

Is anyone very familiar with the admissions standards at these schools? With a 3.72 GPA, 1450 GRE score (670 verbal, 780 quantitative -- probably the best thing I have going for me, but I've heard some schools couldn't care less) and the afore-mentioned experience, how competitive will I be? Is this a stupid thing to consider at this point in my career, given the state of the business? Does anyone have any other recommendations?

And yes, I consider "go for the MBA," "get out as soon as you can," and "fetch me a beer, and then go **** yourself, you arrogant little ****" to be valid responses. I'd love some more substantive advice too. Thanks a lot.

 

[young effin dud]

Only at Missouri, and maybe a few other schools. I was thinking I'd probably go the Communications route.

 

[In Cold Blood]

one word of advice from a guy fresh out of school:

If you want to be a teacher someday, which from your post, sounds like a real possibility, get as much practical experience as you can.

When i was in school, our (small) journalism program had two full-time faculty members... one had a PHD, one a masters, but the one with the masters had years of experience at about a half dozen newspapers and mr. phd had very minimal real world experience, he was more of a lifetime academic.

I always felt like I learned a lot more from, and had more respect for, the professor who could tell the war stories from her years in the business. Many of those stories seemed more useful than the theory we were learning in the other guy's class.

 

[sportschick]

Before you run up debt getting a Master's, make sure it's worth it salarywise at magazines. If they make what most newspaper folks make, I don't know that it's worth it.

Oh, and fetch me a beer

EDIT: PM Cadet. She's got a J Master's. She's probably better for advice on this topic than a lot of us.

 

[Rickys The Best]

I think it depends on your financial situation. If you come from money and you won't have to take out $80K in loans, go for it. If you'll be sending yourself through school and want to work in journalism after, think twice. Especially if you're getting married soon and plan on having kids. Having $500/month in student loans will be tough to deal with if you're married and working at a magazine (very likely in NYC if you go to Columbia) making less than $50K/year.

Have you thought about spending more time at your current paper and trying to get in with a magazine eventually? You'll learn more there than you will at school. Then again, if I came from money I would have already gone back to school. You can't duplicate the experience of being a student.

 

[Some Guy]

I remember my roommate in college telling our J-school advisor he was thinking of getting his master's.

Advisor said, "Why on Earth would you want to do that?"

 

[ChmDogg]

You'd be crazy not to include Newhouse at Syracuse in the places you apply.

 

[In Cold Blood]

Waylon,
i think that's a really good point. And coming from a small, unknown college, I've already had some of that experience as I've gone up against some big school kids for internships etc..

How long in a person's career do you think that holds true though? I can understand that argument for the first job, maybe the second, but if I've got eight years in the business and some kick-ass clips, will going to Podunk College almost a decade ago matter to hiring editors?

(and in case this sounds like I'm arguing with you, I'm not. It's an honest question.)

 

[Some Guy]

I remember my roommate in college telling our J-school advisor he was thinking of getting his master's.

Advisor said, "Why on Earth would you want to do that?"

If you went to an unknown college, it does make sense.

People can deny it all they want, but that name on the education portion of the resume means a whole lot.

The point my old advisor was trying to make is, if all you want to be is a writer, magazine or otherwise, nobody gives a rat's ass where you went to school or what kinds of degrees you have. All they care about is, "Can you write?"

Now if you want to be a teacher or professor at some point, grad school makes plenty of sense. At most schools and school districts, having that degree automatically bumps you up a pay grade or two.

 

[Some Guy]

I remember my roommate in college telling our J-school advisor he was thinking of getting his master's.

Advisor said, "Why on Earth would you want to do that?"

If you went to an unknown college, it does make sense.

People can deny it all they want, but that name on the education portion of the resume means a whole lot.

The point my old advisor was trying to make is, if all you want to be is a writer, magazine or otherwise, nobody gives a rat's ass where you went to school or what kinds of degrees you have. All they care about is, "Can you write?"

Not true. They'll all say that, of course. But it's not true. An Ivy League or other big-name school degree is reassurance to them that you're bright. It may be subconscious, but it matters to them.

In all my years in the business, OK, it's only 10 of them, I've only worked with one dude out of the Ivy League. He was hired because of his clips. They were good. He also turned out to be a total douche. So, if I'm hiring someone today, an Ivy League education might actually be a strike against

No, seriously, in all the hiring proceedings I've been involved with, I've never once seen a person's alma mater made into an issue. We've hired people from huge schools and tiny schools and schools nobody has ever heard of. If you're clips are good enough, you'll get a look.

 

[devils_claw]

I remember my roommate in college telling our J-school advisor he was thinking of getting his master's.

Advisor said, "Why on Earth would you want to do that?"

And that is a perfectly valid question if your undergrad degree was in journalism. Let's face it--if your first degree didn't teach you what you needed to know, the second one probably won't do you much good.

In this case, however, his degree wasn't in journalism, and I think having the masters could be beneficial. There's a lot of stuff you can do in school that you can't do even in the best newspaper: you can take photo or design classes, you can work in different positions on the school paper...while you might end up just being a writer, having some of those skills in your back pocket can be very beneficial. And if you happen to like photo or design or copy editing, you have a lot more options in terms of jobs if you're looking to stay where you're at.
(I am speaking from experience on this one.)

I'd say the money is definitely a major concern. We all know our salaries aren't skyrocketing up any time soon. If you can afford it, though, and you're ready to put in the work, I say go for it.

 

[Some Guy]

I remember my roommate in college telling our J-school advisor he was thinking of getting his master's.

Advisor said, "Why on Earth would you want to do that?"

And that is a perfectly valid question if your undergrad degree was in journalism. Let's face it--if your first degree didn't teach you what you needed to know, the second one probably won't do you much good.

That's probably true. I still think real-world experiece is 100 times more beneficial -- and more attractive -- than anything written on a diploma.

One of the best sportswriters I know was a history major.

Let me say I'm not discouraging the OP from grad school, especially if he plans on being a teacher some day. I wouldn't recommend it, however, if all he ever wants to do is write.

 

[Some Guy]

I remember my roommate in college telling our J-school advisor he was thinking of getting his master's.

Advisor said, "Why on Earth would you want to do that?"

If you went to an unknown college, it does make sense.

People can deny it all they want, but that name on the education portion of the resume means a whole lot.

The point my old advisor was trying to make is, if all you want to be is a writer, magazine or otherwise, nobody gives a rat's ass where you went to school or what kinds of degrees you have. All they care about is, "Can you write?"

Not true. They'll all say that, of course. But it's not true. An Ivy League or other big-name school degree is reassurance to them that you're bright. It may be subconscious, but it matters to them.

In all my years in the business, OK, it's only 10 of them, I've only worked with one dude out of the Ivy League. He was hired because of his clips. They were good. He also turned out to be a total douche. So, if I'm hiring someone today, an Ivy League education might actually be a strike against

No, seriously, in all the hiring proceedings I've been involved with, I've never once seen a person's alma mater made into an issue. We've hired people from huge schools and tiny schools and schools nobody has ever heard of. If you're clips are good enough, you'll get a look.

I guess I'm thinking more of the high-profile positions at the big shops - the NY Times, the Washington Post, the L.A. Times, etc., etc. News side, particularly the big-name reporters who get the big-time assignments, like covering D.C. or Iraq or poverty in New York City for a few months, typically come of schools like Columbia's grad program. Or else have some high-falutin' internship/fellowship to their credit.

Well, you're probably right. I'm not a hiring editor or anything like that. I was just speaking more from my own personal experiences.

 

[fishwrapper]

I remember my roommate in college telling our J-school advisor he was thinking of getting his master's.

Advisor said, "Why on Earth would you want to do that?"

If you went to an unknown college, it does make sense.

People can deny it all they want, but that name on the education portion of the resume means a whole lot.

The point my old advisor was trying to make is, if all you want to be is a writer, magazine or otherwise, nobody gives a rat's ass where you went to school or what kinds of degrees you have. All they care about is, "Can you write?"

Not true. They'll all say that, of course. But it's not true. An Ivy League or other big-name school degree is reassurance to them that you're bright. It may be subconscious, but it matters to them.

In all my years in the business, OK, it's only 10 of them, I've only worked with one dude out of the Ivy League. He was hired because of his clips. They were good. He also turned out to be a total douche. So, if I'm hiring someone today, an Ivy League education might actually be a strike against

No, seriously, in all the hiring proceedings I've been involved with, I've never once seen a person's alma mater made into an issue. We've hired people from huge schools and tiny schools and schools nobody has ever heard of. If you're clips are good enough, you'll get a look.

I guess I'm thinking more of the high-profile positions at the big shops - the NY Times, the Washington Post, the L.A. Times, etc., etc. News side, particularly the big-name reporters who get the big-time assignments, like covering D.C. or Iraq or poverty in New York City for a few months, typically come of schools like Columbia's grad program. Or else have some high-falutin' internship/fellowship to their credit.

This is not true. It certainly isn't the rule.

 

[young effin dud]

one word of advice from a guy fresh out of school:

If you want to be a teacher someday, which from your post, sounds like a real possibility, get as much practical experience as you can.

When i was in school, our (small) journalism program had two full-time faculty members... one had a PHD, one a masters, but the one with the masters had years of experience at about a half dozen newspapers and mr. phd had very minimal real world experience, he was more of a lifetime academic.

I always felt like I learned a lot more from, and had more respect for, the professor who could tell the war stories from her years in the business. Many of those stories seemed more useful than the theory we were learning in the other guy's class.

Becoming that Ph.D. professor you mentioned is actually one of my biggest fears in all of this. The whole, "Those who can, do, and those who can't, teach" cliche seems to ring true in journalism, especially at smaller schools like the one I went to. I like school and I'm good at it, but I'm scared to get sucked the meaningless side of academia. Hopefully someday I'll turn to teaching after many years in the business, rather than falling into the academic ghetto before I've really learned the business.

I really appreciate all the feedback. As a first-time poster, I was kind of scared I was going to come off as pretentious little prick, so I'm glad to have gotten thoughtful responses. It's such a tricky situation, because I know "Some Guy" makes valid points that reflect the opinions of many people in this business. And money is an issue (my parents could put me through grad school, but I'm not sure if they will -- they're big on me being independent).

It does seem like something that could really provide a big boost, especially for students who can really stand out while in school. Like WaylonJennings, I constantly notice bios of high-level, heavy-hitting journalists that include names of big-time schools.

 

[User 4332]

Young Effin Dud,

You asked earlier about your chances of getting in with your GPA and GRE. I don't think you should have a problem. To give you an idea, I got into UNC's and Indiana's master's programs with a 3.0 GPA and 1320-ish GRE. And UNC is arguably on par with the schools you mentioned. Maybe IU too. A friend of mine went to Columbia with similar numbers to yours.

As far as whether or not you should go, I think my standard advice is do it only if you are looking for some kind of personal enrichment or if there is a tangible benefit of which you're sure. It's not going to guarantee you any big-time jobs, by any means. It may open some doors, but who is to say that you couldn't have opened those same doors through hustle and good networking while working? There are benefits to the networks those schools have within the journalism world, but you have to make use of them.

You mentioned an interest in teaching and that might be the biggest benefit to getting your master's. Having that will allow you to dable as an adjunct, if you want, while working. And having the chance to do both simultaneously could let you keep a journalism career going while figuring out if teaching is something you like enough to go after the PhD.

 

[Double Down]

It's pretty rare that I hear of someone getting hired to work for a magazine right out of college, regardless of their level of education. Ultimately, if you want to go to grad school to learn how to write well, and to read hundreds of books you otherwise might not have time for, then that might not be a bad choice. I'm all for soaking up as much knowledge as possible if it's financially feasable. But becoming a long-form writer isn't really a skill you can obtain in school, no matter where you go. You could go to Cal Berkley and sit in some of the best journalism lectures in the country, but unless you spend much of college applying those techniques to stories you're writing on a freelance basis for newspaper or magazine editors (not always easy to do) no one is going to hire you to do long-form narrative for a magazine when you graduate. Seith Wickersham got hired by ESPN the Mag from Mizzou after he graduated, but he's one of the few I can think of that was able to pull that off, and I think it was mostly on the strength of his filthy-good clips and his incredible boldness. I think Frank Deford might have done it too, but that was 40 years ago. And he went to Princeton.

I'm not an expert on this by any means, but I think if you want to learn how to WRITE, and you can get into Columbia, Mizzou, Cal, Syracuse and such, maybe you should think about the Iowa Writer's Workshop or a creative writing degree from somewhere similar. If you want to work for a magazine, the easier path is still through newspapers or freelance stuff. It's the kind of skill I think you have pick up through the practical education of DOING. At that level, I think how good you are matters more than where you went to school. And you can't get good at writing long-form features just by going to school. I truly believe that.

But I'll defer to those with more knowledge than me on the matter.

 

[young effin dud]

It's pretty rare that I hear of someone getting hired to work for a magazine right out of college, regardless of their level of education. Ultimately, if you want to go to grad school to learn how to write well, and to read hundreds of books you otherwise might not have time for, then that might not be a bad choice. I'm all for soaking up as much knowledge as possible if it's financially feasable. But becoming a long-form writer isn't really a skill you can obtain in school, no matter where you go. You could go to Cal Berkley and sit in some of the best journalism lectures in the country, but unless you spend much of college applying those techniques to stories you're writing on a freelance basis for newspaper or magazine editors (not always easy to do) no one is going to hire you to do long-form narrative for a magazine when you graduate. Seith Wickersham got hired by ESPN the Mag from Mizzou after he graduated, but he's one of the few I can think of that was able to pull that off, and I think it was mostly on the strength of his filthy-good clips and his incredible boldness. I think Frank Deford might have done it too, but that was 40 years ago. And he went to Princeton.

I'm not an expert on this by any means, but I think if you want to learn how to WRITE, and you can get into Columbia, Mizzou, Cal, Syracuse and such, maybe you should think about the Iowa Writer's Workshop or a creative writing degree from somewhere similar. If you want to work for a magazine, the easier path is still through newspapers or freelance stuff. It's the kind of skill I think you have pick up through the practical education of DOING. At that level, I think how good you are matters more than where you went to school. And you can't get good at writing long-form features just by going to school. I truly believe that.

But I'll defer to those with more knowledge than me on the matter.

This is why I'm really interested in finding out as much as I can about what students actually do while in school at each of these places. I have a mentor who went to Mizzou from the same school I graduated from, and he was covering Missouri basketball as a full-time beat for the local paper, which is staffed entirely by grad students. He broke several major stories, and when he left, he took a job covering one of the best MLB beats in the country at a major metro. Obviously, this isn't always the case, but it does show what certain schools can do. And that's what I like about Mizzou -- you're not just sitting in class; you are working full-time for a media outlet, accumulating clips the entire time. The grad school basically owns and operates a local outlet in every medium -- newspaper, magazine, radio, tv.

If I were a hiring editor, it would be tough for me to hire someone who had a big-time degree but no standout clips. It seems that some schools can give you both. If so, then that's what I want.

 

[Double Down]

I think we'll have to wait for jgmacg, someone who has been to graduate school(s) and written for magazines, for a real and informed answer to Mr. young effin dud's query.

 

[OrangeGrad]

Done the grad school route. It isn't worth it. You learn just as much actually doing it. Regardless of where you do your internship, a hiring editor is going to say, "Sure he spent time at the New York Times....as an intern." It comes down to whether you've got talent. If you've got talent, going to a big-time school can help you get get your name a little closer to the top of the list. If you have no talent, it doesn't matter where you go to school or what degree you've earned.