Fine piece on Mark McGwire

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

I know Moddy doesn't want a thread per player but I think this fine piece of writing by Gordon Edes deserves its own thread.

I don't have a HoF vote but if I did Mark McGwire would not be getting it. Edes does an excellent job explaining why McGwire is getting his vote this time around.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AkaWRJfR5MVpWTF3SC9eIPk5nYcB?slug=ge-mcgwire011109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Edes is one the best baseball writers in the business.

 

[Fenian_Bastard]

I think that, while Gordon makes a good case for why Writer A should vote for McGwire, he makes a less solid case for why he's changed his mind. I'd be more interested in why he changed his mind beyond, "Time passes" and a quote from one of the Maris boys.

 

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

I think Gordon's point was that many people during that period were using stuff and Edes doesn't see himself qualified to decide who was and who wasn't using. I've heard Peter Gammons make the same sort of statement. I disagree with that stance because I think a vote for McGwire is a slap in the face of players like Jim Rice and Andre Dawson who weren't users (my assumption but I think one which is safe to make). I disagree with his vote but I admired the way he made is case.

 

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

I think that, while Gordon makes a good case for why Writer A should vote for McGwire, he makes a less solid case for why he's changed his mind. I'd be more interested in why he changed his mind beyond, "Time passes" and a quote from one of the Maris boys.

I also don't disagree with you. Why after 2 years is Edes changing his mind versus waiting another year?

 

[Fenian_Bastard]

I believe that Gammons has held to that position right from jump, correct?
It would be interesting to extrapolate from Gordon's piece whether resistance to McGwire is softening generally among the voters.

 

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

I'd guess that many are waiting to see if Jim Rice gets elected.

I think many are looking at electing Rice as almost a make-up call. Rice's numbers look small next to the steroids guys but by electing Rice some think they are doing contrition. Once Rice is elected then McGwire and Clemens and the like could see more support from people who think their conscience has been wiped clean by 3 Hail mary's, two Our fathers and a vote for Jim Ed Rice.

 

[Fenian_Bastard]

Interesting point on Rice. I've heard that argument made explicitly several times over the past week.
Is there a corresponding pitcher out there? Some guy who isn't in but, because of the suspicions about Clemens, will get a second look this time?

 

[nmmetsfan]

Clemens and McGwire should not make a bit of difference in whether Jim Rice gets elected or not.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

There are going to be a lot of players who come up for induction in the next 10-15 years who are going to have serious questions about whether they used steroids. How do you determine who is worthy and who is not?

Does someone have to have admitted use or tested positive like Palmeiro?

What about someone who was HOF worthy before they started using like Bonds and Clemens?

Which players are going to face the same scrutiny?

 

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

Interesting point on Rice. I've heard that argument made explicitly several times over the past week.
Is there a corresponding pitcher out there? Some guy who isn't in but, because of the suspicions about Clemens, will get a second look this time?

Blyleven comes closest to meeting the pitcher's criteria but his growing support is not steroids related as sabermetrics related.

I don't consider myself a Blyleven guy but the fact that Hal McCoy is voting for him makes me think he's worthy.

 

[Fenian_Bastard]

Hasn't he already given several, "To hell with it. Who needs it?" interviews in re" the Hall?

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

There are going to be a lot of players who come up for induction in the next 10-15 years who are going to have serious questions about whether they used steroids. How do you determine who is worthy and who is not?

Yes. Talk about your slippery slopes.

Rice should be in though, because his numbers look damn good compared with the cheaters'.

 

[bigpern23]

Here's my problem with Edes' argument. Just because you don't know the names of every player who used steroids, that doesn't mean you have to reward the ones you do know. When there is a preponderance of the evidence - as in the case of McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, et. al - I think it's perfectly fair not to vote for them.

 

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Bonds and Clemens will get in. They might have to wait a year or two, but they'll get in.

McGwire? I don't know... Perhaps...
Sosa?
Palmeiro? No... He's the only one where it should be an easy no.

Anybody who is borderline won't get in.

 

[Fenian_Bastard]

I'm sold.
He's in.
As long as he wears the Tshirt to the induction next summer.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Which players alleged/supposed/proven steroid use will have an impact on whether they make it to Cooperstown?

McGwire is the first to experience the backlash.

Palmeiro will be next, then Sosa, Bonds and Clemens. I guess Sheffield has to be a part of the conversation as well.

Canseco and Pettitte weren't getting in anyway.

Who am I forgetting?

 

[bigpern23]

I think that's about it among the potential HOFers who have had their names linked to 'roids in any substantive manner.

I doubt Giambi was going to sniff the HOF anyway, but he's the only other big name guy I can think of at the moment.

 

[TheSportsPredictor]

Edes argument is now, Eh, who cares anymore.

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

Edes argument is now, Eh, who cares anymore.

Vintage America.

Like the Iraq War.

Once an issue wears out out toilet-paper-thin patience, all is OK.