Fine piece on Mark McGwire

[Fenian_Bastard]

Not quite like the Iraq War, I don't think.

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

Not quite like the Iraq War, I don't think.

A long list of issues that were once important, and now mainstream America could not give a **** about.

The same in that way. The way that I posted it.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Other than the obvious steroid use for probably all but a couple seasons, my problem with McGwire was that other than the home runs, he just really wasn't a very good player.

 

[qtlaw]

Just because McGwire played with unknown others who also cheat does not lessen his failure to address the more specific information on him and his utter failure (and ridiculous public position) to address the questions asked of him. Usually, a non-denial should not mean an admission, but this is not a criminal trial, and any reasonable person would deny, that's the standard that should apply here. Secondly, I am not enamored of his record. While he did hit 49 his rookie year, thereafter, until he became a steroid freak, he was a very mediocre hitter, even being sat down at the end of the year to perserve a .201 BA. He was/became a really graceful first baseman but I never thought he was a great clutch hitter.

 

[bigpern23]

Other than the obvious steroid use for probably all but a couple seasons, my problem with McGwire was that other than the home runs, he just really wasn't a very good player.

Agreed ... even before the steroid allegations, I had an argument with a friend where I said he'd probably get in on the first ballot, but I thought he was a marginal candidate.

He'd had several years batting below .260 (I think it was five at the time, before his atrocious final season, which made it six, IIRC) and was a defensive liability.

His HR and walk numbers were going to be enough to get him in, but I never viewed him as a complete player.

The fact that steroids helped him come back from an awful stretch in the early to mid '90s solidifies my belief that he never would have made the hall without them.

 

[Joe Williams]

Here's my problem with Edes' argument. Just because you don't know the names of every player who used steroids, that doesn't mean you have to reward the ones you do know. When there is a preponderance of the evidence - as in the case of McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, et. al - I think it's perfectly fair not to vote for them.

I'm with you on this.

Also, those in line for the greatest rewards have to accept the greater risk. If I'm Joe Blow trying to syringe myself from Class AAA ball to a cup of coffee in the bigs, that's one level of cheating. If I'm a great player trying to syringe myself into the record book or to an extra half dozen seasons of multi-million salary, that's a whole 'nother level of cheating.

For guys who seemed like they were headed to Cooperstown before they cheated -- Bonds, Clemens, as Mizzou suggested -- I say too bad. You get to keep your big bank accounts and your extra celebrity and even your non-asterisked records. But you don't get to skip over any years of dirty dealings to go through Cooperstown's front door. You forfeited that when you went over to the dark side. To me, it's like someone from the neighborhood getting voted Good Citizen of the Year for his long tenure in town, but dallying with a 13-year-old cheerleader three months before the banquet. They invalidate themselves and they sure don't get to take the Hall of Fame for granted, as if they've tucked it into their back pocket and now can do whatever they want. That's why the HOF doesn't induct players while they're playing or even a year after they're done.

I know the Hall has no mechanism for throwing out guys found to be snakes after they've been enshrined -- if Pete Rose had held off on gambling or at least held off on being caught until after his induction, he'd still be in. But those are the rules of this game: If you do something to screw up your chances before you're in, your chaces of getting in get screwed up. Period. Too bad.

 

[nmmetsfan]

Here's my problem with Edes' argument. Just because you don't know the names of every player who used steroids, that doesn't mean you have to reward the ones you do know. When there is a preponderance of the evidence - as in the case of McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, et. al - I think it's perfectly fair not to vote for them.

I'm with you on this.

Also, those in line for the greatest rewards have to accept the greater risk. If I'm Joe Blow trying to syringe myself from Class AAA ball to a cup of coffee in the bigs, that's one level of cheating. If I'm a great player trying to syringe myself into the record book or to an extra half dozen seasons of multi-million salary, that's a whole 'nother level of cheating.

For guys who seemed like they were headed to Cooperstown before they cheated -- Bonds, Clemens, as Mizzou suggested -- I say too bad. You get to keep your big bank accounts and your extra celebrity and even your non-asterisked records. But you don't get to skip over any years of dirty dealings to go through Cooperstown's front door. You forfeited that when you went over to the dark side. To me, it's like someone from the neighborhood getting voted Good Citizen of the Year for his long tenure in town, but dallying with a 13-year-old cheerleader three months before the banquet. They invalidate themselves and they sure don't get to take the Hall of Fame for granted, as if they've tucked it into their back pocket and now can do whatever they want. That's why the HOF doesn't induct players while they're playing or even a year after they're done.

I know the Hall has no mechanism for throwing out guys found to be snakes after they've been enshrined -- if Pete Rose had held off on gambling or at least held off on being caught until after his induction, he'd still be in. But those are the rules of this game: If you do something to screw up your chances before you're in, your chaces of getting in get screwed up. Period. Too bad.

Not that you need it from me, but nice take

 

[micke77]

i agree about mcqwire being a "marginal" candidate. i have always felt that way and his home run surge didn't change that thinking. i am sure rickey will make a push for mcqwire to be in as part of his acceptance speech this summer. book it.

 

[In Exile]

Jim Rice ought to send McGwire a bowl of fruit, becasue if it were not for McGwire's PED issues, Rice would never had gotten in. That's being sais, Ede's argument reminds me too much of the "man of his time" argument about about Tom Yawkey et al.

 

[heyabbott]

If Mark McGwire were white, he'd be in the HOF [/Wm Rhoden]

 

[Evil ... Thy name is Orville Redenbacher!!]

Here's my problem with Edes' argument. Just because you don't know the names of every player who used steroids, that doesn't mean you have to reward the ones you do know. When there is a preponderance of the evidence - as in the case of McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Clemens, Palmeiro, et. al - I think it's perfectly fair not to vote for them.

That's a Bingo!

 

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

://www.manofest.com/index.php?option=com_myblog&show=TOP-10-VIDEOS-OF-BOOBS-BOUNCING-IN-SLOW-MOTION.html&Itemidiurl=http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/EYMlIsoZTXY/hqdefault.jpg&feature=player_embedded

 

[da man]

From Edes' column:

Only seven players in major-league history have hit 400 or more home runs and had a higher OPS. Their names are Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Bonds, Jimmie Foxx and Manny Ramirez.


Ummm... that's six.

Yeah, it's nitpicky, but that's what I do.

 

[Double J]

He counted Babe and Ruth as two people? :)

 

[Ben_Hecht]

One of the things I love most about Swollen Mac getting slapped time and again is
how it'll continue to make "Mr. Omerta/What Happens In Baseball Stays In Baseball/
Mac Didn't Really Violate The Letter Of The Law" LaRussa squirm in his chair.
Your pet's a fake, Tony. And he'll be flipped the bird again, and again, and again.

 

[Seahawk]

We'll never know how many home runs McGwire hit as a result of performance enhancers. Without them would he have finished with numbers more like Darrell Evans?

McGwire 16 seasons, .263 BA, 1167 runs, 1626 hits, 252 2B, 583 HR, 1414 RBI, 1317 BB, 1596 K
Evans 21 seasons, .248 BA, 1344 runs, 2223 hits, 329 2B, 414 HR, 1354 RBI, 1605 BB, 1410 K

 

[Mizzougrad96]

That batting average should hurt his HOF candidacy as much as the steroid use.

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

McGuire?

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Yeah, Al had a bad batting average. ;D

 

[Seahawk]

Damn, I did it twice, too. My bad. (fixed it, but still feel dumb).