Editors

[Kaylee]

But a lot of that was learned, on the fly, by yelling editors who simply told me how it should be done, and once I did it wrong a few times, I got the hang of it. Or I got a loud critique of what I screwed up the next day. It's a process. And the better and more driven the writer, the more they're going to take it upon themselves to learn on their own.

Yeah, that's how I learned. But nowadays, and in certain work environments, the yelling thing is frowned upon. Too bad in a way. There was an SE on a mid-major who hounded the hell out of me when I was in my early 20s -- he often slotted stories -- and I hated him, but now we are e-mail pals because I appreciate all he taught me and I know it makes him feel good to hear it.

I don't think this is possible in an online environment like SF's because I'd guess your people are always on deadline, but on any decent-size newspaper the rim is going to have some downtime either early or midshift. Don't scoff. You might think you're the next Gary Smith, but learning the basics really well will never hurt you -- and besides, if it appears you give a **** about turning in clean copy, the desk is more likely to cut you some slack when you try to take a chance. Also, there are lots of very talented people rimming. Some of them were excellent writers and decided to go into editing. I worked with one guy who won an APSE for columns and became a rim guy six months later. I gave up an MLB beat to work the desk because I liked it more.

The desk guys will appreciate being approached if you do it when they aren't busy. I think the most flattering thing that happened to me in this business was years ago when the best young writer on that paper called me at home and said, "I know you're on vacation, but I really want you to look at this story." Of course I did.

Building on that...

Not all copy editors are the enemy.

Yes, there are some who are just frustrated would-be writers who are unhappy with their circumstances and thusly take it out on the writers. But most of them? Not so much.

Whenever my copy gets thouroughly rogered by the copy desk, I find out who read my stuff and send him an e-mail. I say I noticed it was changed and ask what I can do to make sure it wouldnt happen again and, thusly, cut down on the work he has to do.

You wouldn't believe how much I've learned from this, and these guys are only too happy to share. Plus, like Frank said, the more they know you're not going to throw an ego trip, the more they're willing to let you take risks.

Believe me, if I ever get hired on someplace that thinks I'm worth a ****, the first thing I'm going to do is shake the hand of every copy editor at my current shop and say a warm, genuine "thanks."

 

[henryhenry]

if you're waiting for an editor to make you a better writer you could be in for a long wait. why do you think editors are editors? hint: it's not because they were good writers. and that's not a knock on editors - they do other things that have to be done.

Please clarify this. I don't want to take it the wrong way if it's really not a knock on editors. Because, boy, it sure sounds like it ...

reference SF Express above

 

[Frank_Ridgeway]

if you're waiting for an editor to make you a better writer you could be in for a long wait. why do you think editors are editors? hint: it's not because they were good writers. and that's not a knock on editors - they do other things that have to be done.

Please clarify this. I don't want to take it the wrong way if it's really not a knock on editors. Because, boy, it sure sounds like it ...

reference SF Express above

The real Henry Hecht was a beat writer of reknown who became an editor.

 

[boots]

if you're waiting for an editor to make you a better writer you could be in for a long wait. why do you think editors are editors? hint: it's not because they were good writers. and that's not a knock on editors - they do other things that have to be done.

Please clarify this. I don't want to take it the wrong way if it's really not a knock on editors. Because, boy, it sure sounds like it ...

reference SF Express above

The real Henry Hecht was a beat writer of reknown who became an editor.

The real Henry Hecht was also a pain in the ass at times, but he was ok to break bread with.

 

[shotglass]

if you're waiting for an editor to make you a better writer you could be in for a long wait. why do you think editors are editors? hint: it's not because they were good writers. and that's not a knock on editors - they do other things that have to be done.

Please clarify this. I don't want to take it the wrong way if it's really not a knock on editors. Because, boy, it sure sounds like it ...

reference SF Express above

Uh-uh. You were saying two different things.

SF is saying that a sports editor has a full 40 hours a week in running a sports department.

You're saying that copy editors aren't equal to the task of helping writers become better, because they weren't good writers themselves. Which is one hell of a generalization.

 

[Write-brained]

Sending in ideas is fine.

By "dumb things" I mean asking for the phone number for a coach that is readily available or directions to every assignment or pestering about a parking pass or something.

Ideas are always welcome. Except, well, for dumb ones.

I'd be a lying fool if I said that all my ideas are gold, because they're certainly not. And I'm sure some of them have been construed as a bit off-the-wall, but I think that's only human.

Back to my initial question... how would you balance national exposure with frustration and improving as a writer?

if you're waiting for an editor to make you a better writer you could be in for a long wait. why do you think editors are editors? hint: it's not because they were good writers.

That is an odd thing to say.

I've only had one editor who wasn't a solid writer in his own right and, to his credit, didn't pretend to be ... he was an organizer to the nth degree. The biggest problem I've had are editors without social skills who just can't communicate what they want. Suprising but true, good reporters don't always translate into good editors. We're an industry of introverts.

But not good writers? That's a new one.

 

[SF_Express]

I'm only pointing out that sports editors and ASEs and copy editors and slot people and whoever have a lot to deal with.

So: Ask for input and B) understand all the other things going on in their jobs. And take whatever steps you can, while you're waiting, to make yourselves better on your own.

 

[Tom Petty]

But a lot of that was learned, on the fly, by yelling editors who simply told me how it should be done, and once I did it wrong a few times, I got the hang of it. Or I got a loud critique of what I screwed up the next day. It's a process. And the better and more driven the writer, the more they're going to take it upon themselves to learn on their own.

Yeah, that's how I learned. But nowadays, and in certain work environments, the yelling thing is frowned upon. Too bad in a way. There was an SE on a mid-major who hounded the hell out of me when I was in my early 20s -- he often slotted stories -- and I hated him, but now we are e-mail pals because I appreciate all he taught me and I know it makes him feel good to hear it.

I don't think this is possible in an online environment like SF's because I'd guess your people are always on deadline, but on any decent-size newspaper the rim is going to have some downtime either early or midshift. Don't scoff. You might think you're the next Gary Smith, but learning the basics really well will never hurt you -- and besides, if it appears you give a **** about turning in clean copy, the desk is more likely to cut you some slack when you try to take a chance. Also, there are lots of very talented people rimming. Some of them were excellent writers and decided to go into editing. I worked with one guy who won an APSE for columns and became a rim guy six months later. I gave up an MLB beat to work the desk because I liked it more.

The desk guys will appreciate being approached if you do it when they aren't busy. I think the most flattering thing that happened to me in this business was years ago when the best young writer on that paper called me at home and said, "I know you're on vacation, but I really want you to look at this story." Of course I did.

Believe me, if I ever get hired on someplace that thinks I'm worth a ****, the first thing I'm going to do is ..."

i wouldn't be etching much of anything in stone if i were you.

 

[Write-brained]

But a lot of that was learned, on the fly, by yelling editors who simply told me how it should be done, and once I did it wrong a few times, I got the hang of it. Or I got a loud critique of what I screwed up the next day. It's a process. And the better and more driven the writer, the more they're going to take it upon themselves to learn on their own.

Yeah, that's how I learned. But nowadays, and in certain work environments, the yelling thing is frowned upon. Too bad in a way. There was an SE on a mid-major who hounded the hell out of me when I was in my early 20s -- he often slotted stories -- and I hated him, but now we are e-mail pals because I appreciate all he taught me and I know it makes him feel good to hear it.

I don't think this is possible in an online environment like SF's because I'd guess your people are always on deadline, but on any decent-size newspaper the rim is going to have some downtime either early or midshift. Don't scoff. You might think you're the next Gary Smith, but learning the basics really well will never hurt you -- and besides, if it appears you give a **** about turning in clean copy, the desk is more likely to cut you some slack when you try to take a chance. Also, there are lots of very talented people rimming. Some of them were excellent writers and decided to go into editing. I worked with one guy who won an APSE for columns and became a rim guy six months later. I gave up an MLB beat to work the desk because I liked it more.

The desk guys will appreciate being approached if you do it when they aren't busy. I think the most flattering thing that happened to me in this business was years ago when the best young writer on that paper called me at home and said, "I know you're on vacation, but I really want you to look at this story." Of course I did.

Believe me, if I ever get hired on someplace that thinks I'm worth a ****, the first thing I'm going to do is ..."

i wouldn't be etching much of anything in stone if i were you.

He should probably quit all the ass-kissing, too.

If he kisses as much ass at work as he did on this one thread, he'll end up with chapped lips and foot prints on his back.

 

[Tom Petty]

But a lot of that was learned, on the fly, by yelling editors who simply told me how it should be done, and once I did it wrong a few times, I got the hang of it. Or I got a loud critique of what I screwed up the next day. It's a process. And the better and more driven the writer, the more they're going to take it upon themselves to learn on their own.

Yeah, that's how I learned. But nowadays, and in certain work environments, the yelling thing is frowned upon. Too bad in a way. There was an SE on a mid-major who hounded the hell out of me when I was in my early 20s -- he often slotted stories -- and I hated him, but now we are e-mail pals because I appreciate all he taught me and I know it makes him feel good to hear it.

I don't think this is possible in an online environment like SF's because I'd guess your people are always on deadline, but on any decent-size newspaper the rim is going to have some downtime either early or midshift. Don't scoff. You might think you're the next Gary Smith, but learning the basics really well will never hurt you -- and besides, if it appears you give a **** about turning in clean copy, the desk is more likely to cut you some slack when you try to take a chance. Also, there are lots of very talented people rimming. Some of them were excellent writers and decided to go into editing. I worked with one guy who won an APSE for columns and became a rim guy six months later. I gave up an MLB beat to work the desk because I liked it more.

The desk guys will appreciate being approached if you do it when they aren't busy. I think the most flattering thing that happened to me in this business was years ago when the best young writer on that paper called me at home and said, "I know you're on vacation, but I really want you to look at this story." Of course I did.

Believe me, if I ever get hired on someplace that thinks I'm worth a ****, the first thing I'm going to do is ..."

i wouldn't be etching much of anything in stone if i were you.

He should probably quit all the ass-kissing, too.

If he kisses as much ass at work as he did on this one thread, he'll end up with chapped lips and foot prints on his back.

i'm guessing he's also experienced in other areas of "making nice" as well.

 

[Kaylee]

I won't respond to Tom because, well, he's Tom.

But Write, from what I've gleaned from this thread, you could probably do well to credit those around you as well. The "ass-kissing" as you put it is actually something most in this business refer to as "respect." Or, in my case, respect for those much older than me who have been doing it much longer than me and do not have to treat me as an equal if they don't want to.

Knowing everything, surprisingly, doesn't get you far in this business. But maybe you'll find that out on your own one day.

And I'd say it hardly qualifies as "ass kissing" when I wouldn't have clue one if any of my superiors frequented this board to begin with.

 

[Tom Petty]

Knowing everything, surprisingly, doesn't get you far in this business. But maybe you'll find that out on your own one day.

whoa there sparky. even when you attempt to say you don't know it all, you act as if you know it all. which is it?

 

[Write-brained]

I won't respond to Tom because, well, he's Tom.

But Write, from what I've gleaned from this thread, you could probably do well to credit those around you as well. The "ass-kissing" as you put it is actually something most in this business refer to as "respect." Or, in my case, respect for those much older than me who have been doing it much longer than me and do not have to treat me as an equal if they don't want to.

Knowing everything, surprisingly, doesn't get you far in this business. But maybe you'll find that out on your own one day.

And I'd say it hardly qualifies as "ass kissing" when I wouldn't have clue one if any of my superiors frequented this board to begin with.

I always give credit where it's due, cuz when you talk openly like me you've got to give the good with the bad ... I may have come across a bit negative here because my perception of this thread is what do you do when your editors suck? ...

Your attitude of shaking everyone's hands just for being them kind of creeps me out a bit and would probably warrant a few eye rolls, at the least. Couple of copy editors I know might f with your copy just cuz they can't stand ass kissers either.

 

[Kaylee]

I won't respond to Tom because, well, he's Tom.

But Write, from what I've gleaned from this thread, you could probably do well to credit those around you as well. The "ass-kissing" as you put it is actually something most in this business refer to as "respect." Or, in my case, respect for those much older than me who have been doing it much longer than me and do not have to treat me as an equal if they don't want to.

Knowing everything, surprisingly, doesn't get you far in this business. But maybe you'll find that out on your own one day.

And I'd say it hardly qualifies as "ass kissing" when I wouldn't have clue one if any of my superiors frequented this board to begin with.

Couple of copy editors I know might f with your copy just cuz they can't stand ass kissers either.

Well, adjectives fail me when it comes to your copy editors then.

And if asking people how I can both get better and make their jobs easier makes me an ass-kisser, then hand me a moist towelette to wipe the hemorroid cream off my lips. There are acres of difference between being friendly and respectful and being a suckup, and while I can't rightly bank on what present and past co-workers would say of me, I'd wager a hefty portion of my take-home pay that "suckup" doesn't enter their language.

And incidentally, your qualms with the bad editors of the world sound like so much howling at the moon. You've been given ample examples, advice and even some well-deserved "**** you's" from some pretty intelligent people here (oops! I'm ass-kissing again!) While ****ty bosses are a lousy fact of life, I'm still waiting for the scientific proof of them controlling one's career. Though it may shock you, I have some SE horror stories that could probably rival your own, but ultimately, what's the point?

If you're stuck with a terrible editor, write your ass off and go someplace else. Nobody can control how good you are but you, and while I may throw back a few beers with my colleagues and ***** about so-and-so, it sure as hell isn't going to keep me from going after my goals. And if I don't make those goals, guess who's at fault? Not any editor I've had, that's for damn sure.

If your fascination with terrible editors is a reflection of your own situation, then you're wasting energy that could be spent improving yourself. Which, if you carry yourself with the ****-you-I'll-say-what's-on-my-mind attitude that you've brought to this thread, is going to have to become direly important to you.

 

[Write-brained]

I won't respond to Tom because, well, he's Tom.

But Write, from what I've gleaned from this thread, you could probably do well to credit those around you as well. The "ass-kissing" as you put it is actually something most in this business refer to as "respect." Or, in my case, respect for those much older than me who have been doing it much longer than me and do not have to treat me as an equal if they don't want to.

Knowing everything, surprisingly, doesn't get you far in this business. But maybe you'll find that out on your own one day.

And I'd say it hardly qualifies as "ass kissing" when I wouldn't have clue one if any of my superiors frequented this board to begin with.

Couple of copy editors I know might f with your copy just cuz they can't stand ass kissers either.

Well, adjectives fail me when it comes to your copy editors then.

And if asking people how I can both get better and make their jobs easier makes me an ass-kisser, then hand me a moist towelette to wipe the hemorroid cream off my lips. There are acres of difference between being friendly and respectful and being a suckup, and while I can't rightly bank on what present and past co-workers would say of me, I'd wager a hefty portion of my take-home pay that "suckup" doesn't enter their language.

And incidentally, your qualms with the bad editors of the world sound like so much howling at the moon. You've been given ample examples, advice and even some well-deserved "**** you's" from some pretty intelligent people here (oops! I'm ass-kissing again!) While ****ty bosses are a lousy fact of life, I'm still waiting for the scientific proof of them controlling one's career. Though it may shock you, I have some SE horror stories that could probably rival your own, but ultimately, what's the point?

If you're stuck with a terrible editor, write your ass off and go someplace else. Nobody can control how good you are but you, and while I may throw back a few beers with my colleagues and ***** about so-and-so, it sure as hell isn't going to keep me from going after my goals. And if I don't make those goals, guess who's at fault? Not any editor I've had, that's for damn sure.

If your fascination with terrible editors is a reflection of your own situation, then you're wasting energy that could be spent improving yourself. Which, if you carry yourself with the ****-you-I'll-say-what's-on-my-mind attitude that you've brought to this thread, is going to have to become direly important to you.

Made quite a number of assumptions that were incorrect. Quoting one of my last posts on this thread: "I'm at a fairly big metro now and the editing and attitude is wonderful. I'd take a bullet for my editors because they want quality as much as I do."

Truth is, I put a whole lot more pressure and expectations on myself more than any editor ever could ...

 

[Kaylee]

Then shut up and keep doing what you're doing.

And congrats on working at a "fairly big metro." Shall the SportsJournalists.com community fellate you now or later?

 

[Write-brained]

Then shut up and keep doing what you're doing.

And congrats on working at a "fairly big metro." Shall the SportsJournalists.com community fellate you now or later?

It wasn't a boast, dude. Just a matter of fact statement. Read the original post if you have to.

In fact, I've been at bigger but it's not circulation that matters - it's that you're at a paper that is always trying to get better.

If you're not a kiss ass, then good for you but it sounds like I struck a nerve.

 

[Kaylee]

Then shut up and keep doing what you're doing.

And congrats on working at a "fairly big metro." Shall the SportsJournalists.com community fellate you now or later?

It wasn't a boast, dude. Just a matter of fact statement. Read the original post if you have to.

In fact, I've been at bigger but it's not circulation that matters - it's that you're at a paper that is always trying to get better.

If you're not a kiss ass, then good for you but it sounds like I struck a nerve.

I'm not sure how defending my stance in a debate you initiated counts as striking a nerve. Now, if I counter with immature sentiments like "ass-kisser", then that may be a different story.

Anyhow, I'm out. But keep on truckin' and trolling. :

 

[Tom Petty]

Then shut up and keep doing what you're doing.

And congrats on working at a "fairly big metro." Shall the SportsJournalists.com community fellate you now or later?

It wasn't a boast, dude. Just a matter of fact statement. Read the original post if you have to.

In fact, I've been at bigger but it's not circulation that matters - it's that you're at a paper that is always trying to get better.

If you're not a kiss ass, then good for you but it sounds like I struck a nerve.

I'm not sure how defending my stance in a debate you initiated counts as striking a nerve. Now, if I counter with immature sentiments like "ass-kisser", then that may be a different story.

Anyhow, I'm out. But keep on truckin' and trolling. :

hey freakshow. take a valium and STFU. you're making an idiot out of yourself.

 

[imjustagirl2]

I don't know, TP...I think Kaylee's making a lot more sense than you two are.

If a writer goes to an editor and asks for help on a piece, should the editor help? Yes. Do I expect my SE to drop what he's doing every time I send something in to impart some higher wisdom? No. I think there should be an open door between writers and the desk, for good and bad. I always find out who did headlines I really enjoyed, and tell them. I thank the people who make good catches on my simple ****ups. When I'm desking, I will sometimes drop a note to a writer if I really enjoyed his story, or I'll call if I have questions or want to fix things.

I think the key is in communication. Not in terming people "kiss-asses" or whatever else, just in working together to EACH get better at doing this insane job we do.