A religious and philosophical question

[hockeybeat]

I had some time to think yesterday, while taking a train to a job interview. I began to think about the Catholic Church's stance on suicide when my mom called. We talked about a number of topics and she said, "Whatever is God's will, whatever is meant to be is meant to be."

After hanging up, I thought about what she said and I began to wonder. The Catholic Church decries suicide, calling it a sin. But if God's will rules everything, then suicide cannot be a sin. There is no free will, and by that logic it cannot be a sin?

 

[mike311gd]

Logic has no place in organized religion.

 

[Clever username]

Logic has no place in organized religion.

So religion was created by women?

 

[Ace]

The Catholic Church says there is no free will? They why do you have to confess? Why not just blame God?

 

[cranberry]

"It was God's will" might be the most convenient excuse ever devised by people seeking to evade responsibility for their actions.

 

[friend of a friend]

"It was God's will" might be the most convenient excuse ever devised by people seeking to evade responsibility for their actions.

We have a winner

 

[Ace]

"It was God's will" might be the most convenient excuse ever devised by people seeking to evade responsibility for their actions.

We have a winner

Nah. It's a tie with "The Devil made me do it!"

 

[Flying Headbutt]

A guy I used to know back in the day through some church type stuff has become a crazed, future cult leader. And when I say that it comes with no exageration. None at all. His group's website is www.ihop.org. That also is not a joke.

Anyway he goes on to marry a girl who grew up two doors down. She is easily one of the hottest women on the planet. She was also super sweet back in the day, but absolutely gorgeous in the "she could date pro-athletes" if she wanted to way. Anyway, while they were building their misogynistic, cult-like church here (it didn't quite take off, imagine that) dude would lay on his mother-in-law's couch "talking to the lord" all day, and by that he should have just said what it was and that he was napping. Doing chores around the house, perhaps mowing the lawn? Well, after two hours of napp-errr, talking to the lord, he decided God didn't want him mowing the lawn.

They live in Kansas City now. When they were over here, he made up a list of demands for his mother-in-law (who is nice as hell, quite a flake, but completely harmless) including how their kids can't watch any TV, nonsense like that. When she didn't bend over backwards for that ****, he decided after one night that God wanted them to stay at his sister's place. But apparently God also wants his MIL to clean up this house they're trying to sell over here too.

So how much does God interact in our lives? Well, if you're this future Jim Jones, quite a lot. And all you need to do is lay your worthless ass on the couch all day and be filled with the spirit, which apparently can only come through a good afternoon nap. Unless you take your nap in the morning after you just woke up. Then it can happen then too.

 

[Buck]

Actually, Catholicism contends that god is all-knowing and all-powerful, but it also contends that there is free will.
One could argue that the Catholic god knows someone will commit suicide, but that is not the same as saying the Catholic god wants someone to commit suicide.
Catholicism encompasses the concept of sin - thoughts and actions that are contrary to the will of god.

 

[friend of a friend]

hockeybeat, not to get too personal, but why were you thinking about this?

 

[alleyallen]

Actually, Catholicism contends that god is all-knowing and all-powerful, but it also contends that there is free will.
One could argue that the Catholic god knows someone will commit suicide, but that is not the same as saying the Catholic god wants someone to commit suicide.
Catholicism encompasses the concept of sin - thoughts and actions that are contrary to the will of god.

Not that I disagree, but I'll throw this fly into the ointment: Where does it say that God considers suicide a sin? It only is if you truly equate suicide to killing.

 

[hockeybeat]

hockeybeat, not to get too personal, but why were you thinking about this?

Honestly? I was thinking about the Bob Ryan thread on JTO, and what a tragedy his loss was. Then my mom called and I began to wonder about free will versus God's will and what it all means in the grand scheme of things.

 

[friend of a friend]

So I shouldn't worry about you, then?

 

[Buck]

The short answer is that free will is a key element of Catholicism.
Of course, one could wonder about possible conflicts between the Catholic god's all-knowing/all-powerful nature and its all-good nature.
That path leads to a lot of doubt, but it also leads to interesting concepts such as the felix culpa and others.

 

[hockeybeat]

So I shouldn't worry about you, then?

No, no reason to worry about me.

Ya know, I barely studied in my philosophy classes. Now, I'm spending time thinking like I'm Descartes.

 

[JayFarrar]

A guy I used to know back in the day through some church type stuff has become a crazed, future cult leader. And when I say that it comes with no exageration. None at all. His group's website is www.ihop.org. That also is not a joke.

Great, now I worship Mike Bickle as my Lord and Savior.
Thanks, dude. Thanks.

 

[friend of a friend]

A guy I used to know back in the day through some church type stuff has become a crazed, future cult leader. And when I say that it comes with no exageration. None at all. His group's website is www.ihop.org. That also is not a joke.

Great, now I worship Mike Bickle as my Lord and Savior.
Thanks, dude. Thanks.

Where are the pancakes?

 

[jgmacg]

We need to hustle up some actual Catholic theologians hereabouts. But suicide is a mortal sin in that faith. 2nd ring, 7th circle of Hell, per Dante.

And "God's Will" isn't the same as pre-destination or pre-determination. Nor does God's Will negate sin.

 

[Flying Headbutt]

A guy I used to know back in the day through some church type stuff has become a crazed, future cult leader. And when I say that it comes with no exageration. None at all. His group's website is www.ihop.org. That also is not a joke.

Great, now I worship Mike Bickle as my Lord and Savior.
Thanks, dude. Thanks.

Nah, this guy I'm talking about isn't Mike Bickle. Same first name though. I scanned the website for a moment but couldn't come up with him. This guy I'm talking about thinks he's going to the middle east and converting everyone. I wish he'd leave his wife at home, because once this guy is killed she'll snap out of it, and probably want to express her independence in ways that I'd love to be a part of.

 

[Beaker]

If I can remember my St. Augustine, he says that humans have free will, but our free will is given to us by God.

And I lost my train of thought, so I'm just going to shut up now.