A religious and philosophical question

[Angola!]

I had some time to think yesterday, while taking a train to a job interview. I began to think about the Catholic Church's stance on suicide when my mom called. We talked about a number of topics and she said, "Whatever is God's will, whatever is meant to be is meant to be."

After hanging up, I thought about what she said and I began to wonder. The Catholic Church decries suicide, calling it a sin. But if God's will rules everything, then suicide cannot be a sin. There is no free will, and by that logic it cannot be a sin?

Darfur. Sarajevo. Rwanda. Auschwitz. Andersonville. The Black Plague.

If those were God's will, then that's a deity I want no part of.

Personally, I don't think God is as all-powerful as his stringent adherents proclaim. Maybe He created the world, but I don't believe He can do much of anything to affect what happens here. We're on our own; our decisions and our free will determine what happens. Nothing is predestined, nothing is preordained and there are no "holy miracles" or angels walking the earth. There are coincidences, bad things do happen for no reason and random occurrences do have major effects.

We have the power to change our fate, if that is what we want.

By whatever passes for my theology, suicide is a matter of free will.

I think God could be all-powerful if he wanted to, but by giving humans free will he decided to not meddle in things as much.
As far as things being predetermined, that is a Calvinistic philosophy. John Calvin broke out of the Catholic church at some point, can't remember when, because of his beliefs of a preordained amount of people going to heaven.
Actually, I think Calvin broke off of Martin Luther (not King Jr., but the original).
Luther was tired of the Catholic church telling people to give money to the church to help their dead relatives reach higher places in heaven, so Luther left and started the Protestant Church.
From there, Calvin and John Wesley split off, with Calvin going toward predetermination and Wesley going toward Holiness and the work of the Holy Spirit.
The church I grew up in, Nazarenes, is a Wesleyan church. They aren't quite as far out as some Holiness churches, like we didn't speak in tongues or anything, but they do believe a lot in having Holiness affect your entire life and how you live.
I should remember a lot more than this, but I switched from a religion major to an English major before I got into church history.
I'll shoot an e-mail to my brother-in-law and sister, who are pastors. They should be able to help.

 

[writing irish]

Here is my take on the whole suicide thing for those who care and this is coming from someone who is a born-again Christian:
As far as the sin aspect of it goes, you take your own life, you are guaranteed a one-way ticket to hell. That's it, end of story, burn in that lake of sulfur. I loved how suicide is depicted in the movie Constantine. Anyway, God gives us free will, but there is someone competing for our minds and that is Satan. Everyone has the ability to choose one of two paths: good or evil. It's the infinite battle. I believe God and Satan put different choices, thoughts in front of everyone. It's our decision what path we choose. Yes, we're all going to do sinful things, but I think most of us show remorse for our actions. But then you have society's murders, rapists, etc. that show no remorse. There was something that triggered their actions and it was probably based on a choice they had to make between doing the right thing or wrong thing. Unless they are mentally ill, which opens up another can of worms.

As far as mental illness and suicide, I don't know how to respond to that. I mean if you have suicidal thoughts because there is a chemical imbalance in your brain, how can God hold that against you? He did create you with this chemical imbalance. That one is beyond me and I've never thought to ask anyone about it. If someone has a good answer about that one, I would love to hear it.

According to Catholic doctrine, suicide is a mortal sin, and if you die with a mortal sin upon your soul unabsolved you go to hell.

True, but that's not Biblical. That's Sacred Tradition.

 

[Fenian_Bastard]

I believe that de Selby's underwater dialogue with St. Augustine in The Dalkey Archive pretty much settles the question, especially about the five St. Patricks.
That said, I wonder what the theological answer to slow suicide -- suicide by drink by drugs, by food -- is. Does Himself punsih us for killing ourselves without really knowing, or being aware, that we're doing it? If so, and the unaware suicide goes to heaven and the aware one goes to hell, isn't god rewarding ignorance?

 

[sportschick]

I had some time to think yesterday, while taking a train to a job interview. I began to think about the Catholic Church's stance on suicide when my mom called. We talked about a number of topics and she said, "Whatever is God's will, whatever is meant to be is meant to be."

After hanging up, I thought about what she said and I began to wonder. The Catholic Church decries suicide, calling it a sin. But if God's will rules everything, then suicide cannot be a sin. There is no free will, and by that logic it cannot be a sin?

Darfur. Sarajevo. Rwanda. Auschwitz. Andersonville. The Black Plague.

If those were God's will, then that's a deity I want no part of.

Personally, I don't think God is as all-powerful as his stringent adherents proclaim. Maybe He created the world, but I don't believe He can do much of anything to affect what happens here. We're on our own; our decisions and our free will determine what happens. Nothing is predestined, nothing is preordained and there are no "holy miracles" or angels walking the earth. There are coincidences, bad things do happen for no reason and random occurrences do have major effects.

We have the power to change our fate, if that is what we want.

By whatever passes for my theology, suicide is a matter of free will.

I think God could be all-powerful if he wanted to, but by giving humans free will he decided to not meddle in things as much.
As far as things being predetermined, that is a Calvinistic philosophy. John Calvin broke out of the Catholic church at some point, can't remember when, because of his beliefs of a preordained amount of people going to heaven.
Actually, I think Calvin broke off of Martin Luther (not King Jr., but the original).
Luther was tired of the Catholic church telling people to give money to the church to help their dead relatives reach higher places in heaven, so Luther left and started the Protestant Church.
From there, Calvin and John Wesley split off, with Calvin going toward predetermination and Wesley going toward Holiness and the work of the Holy Spirit.
The church I grew up in, Nazarenes, is a Wesleyan church. They aren't quite as far out as some Holiness churches, like we didn't speak in tongues or anything, but they do believe a lot in having Holiness affect your entire life and how you live.
I should remember a lot more than this, but I switched from a religion major to an English major before I got into church history.
I'll shoot an e-mail to my brother-in-law and sister, who are pastors. They should be able to help.

I'd just like to point out that Henry the Eighth was the first to split from the Catholic Church, not Luther as is popularly believed. Henry's desire for a male child (and to no longer be connected to Spain and the Hapsburgs) led him to break off from the Pope (aka the bishop of rome) and form the Anglican Church before Luther officially separated from the Catholics.

Luther started his own church shortly thereafter, and he and Henry despised each other. Henry's vision was for his church to be exactly like the Catholic Church, just headed by him instead of the Pope.

 

[writing irish]

Second Church, same as the First!
"I'm Ennery the Eighth, I am..."

 

[Fenian_Bastard]

Catholics without calisthenics, as Dan Jenkins said.

 

[Buck]

It's a little Robert Anton Wilson-esque.
Of course, traveling the reality branch along which Adam and Eve did not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil creates another conundrum.
Without the original sin, Adam and Eve still exist without knowledge of good and evil. They lack understanding.
So they exercised their free will and chose to follow god's will, but they didn't really choose goodness because they don't know what good and evil are.
They only chose to obey and to remain ignorant. Ignorance may be bliss, but can it really be considered good?
The felix culpa allows for salvation because it allows for an informed choice. Without eating the fruit, we have free will and choose to ignorantly obey.
By eating the fruit, we disobey, but we open the possibility of real goodness, because then we understand what good is and what evil is.

 

[Buck]

Here is my take on the whole suicide thing for those who care and this is coming from someone who is a born-again Christian:
As far as the sin aspect of it goes, you take your own life, you are guaranteed a one-way ticket to hell. That's it, end of story, burn in that lake of sulfur. I loved how suicide is depicted in the movie Constantine. Anyway, God gives us free will, but there is someone competing for our minds and that is Satan. Everyone has the ability to choose one of two paths: good or evil. It's the infinite battle. I believe God and Satan put different choices, thoughts in front of everyone. It's our decision what path we choose. Yes, we're all going to do sinful things, but I think most of us show remorse for our actions. But then you have society's murders, rapists, etc. that show no remorse. There was something that triggered their actions and it was probably based on a choice they had to make between doing the right thing or wrong thing. Unless they are mentally ill, which opens up another can of worms.

As far as mental illness and suicide, I don't know how to respond to that. I mean if you have suicidal thoughts because there is a chemical imbalance in your brain, how can God hold that against you? He did create you with this chemical imbalance. That one is beyond me and I've never thought to ask anyone about it. If someone has a good answer about that one, I would love to hear it.

According to Catholic doctrine, suicide is a mortal sin, and if you die with a mortal sin upon your soul unabsolved you go to hell.

True, but that's not Biblical. That's Sacred Tradition.

There's a lot of doctrine and dogma that is official but not Biblical.

 

[writing irish]

The Anglican Church sucked big donkey balls until some time in the 20th century. Its origins are embarassing. If I'd been alive back in those days, I don't know what I would have done...maybe just held my nose and gone along with the Roman Church or just said "**** it" and become a free love Anabaptist. I like the Anglican Church now, though. It's gone from being one of the world's most prolific oppressors to a voice for justice and freedom.

And Fenian, no one on this thread, including me, has read The Dalkey Archive but you. What did St. A say?

 

[sportschick]

Catholics without calisthenics, as Dan Jenkins said.

All of the God, none of the guilt as my childhood pastor (a former Catholic priest) used to say.

 

[writing irish]

The Anglican Church: Wherein the only Venal Sin is using the wrong fork.

Use of Marmite in preparation of Beans On Toast, however, is optional.

 

[writing irish]

It's a little Robert Anton Wilson-esque.
Of course, traveling the reality branch along which Adam and Eve did not eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil creates another conundrum.
Without the original sin, Adam and Eve still exist without knowledge of good and evil. They lack understanding.
So they exercised their free will and chose to follow god's will, but they didn't really choose goodness because they don't know what good and evil are.
They only chose to obey and to remain ignorant. Ignorance may be bliss, but can it really be considered good?
The felix culpa allows for salvation because it allows for an informed choice. Without eating the fruit, we have free will and choose to ignorantly obey.
By eating the fruit, we disobey, but we open the possibility of real goodness, because then we understand what good is and what evil is.

My mom's family, who were Baptist, were divided over evangelism. One school said that all those who had never heard the Good News automatically went to heaven, so evangelism was bad, as it created a group of people who rejected Jesus and would thus go to Hell. The other school said that only those who accepted Jesus would go to heaven, so by evangelizing, you had nothing to lose and everything to gain.

My Roman Catholic dad would just shake his head and sink into his chair when those discussions began....

 

[copperpot]

Here is my take on the whole suicide thing for those who care and this is coming from someone who is a born-again Christian:
As far as the sin aspect of it goes, you take your own life, you are guaranteed a one-way ticket to hell. That's it, end of story, burn in that lake of sulfur. I loved how suicide is depicted in the movie Constantine. Anyway, God gives us free will, but there is someone competing for our minds and that is Satan. Everyone has the ability to choose one of two paths: good or evil. It's the infinite battle. I believe God and Satan put different choices, thoughts in front of everyone. It's our decision what path we choose. Yes, we're all going to do sinful things, but I think most of us show remorse for our actions. But then you have society's murders, rapists, etc. that show no remorse. There was something that triggered their actions and it was probably based on a choice they had to make between doing the right thing or wrong thing. Unless they are mentally ill, which opens up another can of worms.

As far as mental illness and suicide, I don't know how to respond to that. I mean if you have suicidal thoughts because there is a chemical imbalance in your brain, how can God hold that against you? He did create you with this chemical imbalance. That one is beyond me and I've never thought to ask anyone about it. If someone has a good answer about that one, I would love to hear it.

According to Catholic doctrine, suicide is a mortal sin, and if you die with a mortal sin upon your soul unabsolved you go to hell.

I hope I don't come across as an ass, but this really rubbed me the wrong way. Don't go around spouting what you think is church doctrine.

As I mentioned yesterday, I lost my brother to suicide over the summer. My family is Catholic. This is a topic that I am intimately familiar with, wish though I may I wasn't.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide" (No. 2282).

It continues, "We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives" (No. 2283).

I think writing irish hit it on the head when he said, "Seems to me that anyone who commits suicide is mentally ill. And by suicide I mean an uncoerced action, not someone who gives up their life for an external reason." My brother was in a lot of physical and emotional pain in his final weeks over issues that, honestly, didn't seem that overbearing to me. There's no doubt in my mind that his mind wasn't working right, and I firmly believe in a merciful God that wouldn't hold that against him.

I hate to think I'm developing a reputation as the suicide poster, but as you might imagine, these are issues that have come to have great importance to me. I found a terrific piece by a Catholic priest on suicide that I'll link here lest my post grow even longer:

http://www.ronrolheiser.com/columnarchive/search_detail.php?rec_id=102

Thanks for reading ... like I said at the outset, I hope this didn't come across wrong.

 

[Buck]

The Anglican Church sucked big donkey balls until some time in the 20th century. Its origins are embarassing. If I'd been alive back in those days, I don't know what I would have done...maybe just held my nose and gone along with the Roman Church or just said "**** it" and become a free love Anabaptist.

Check out 'The Tailor King: The Rise and Fall of the Anabaptist Kingdom of Munster' by Anthony Arthur. Not a gripping read, but one heck of an interesting bit of history.

 

[writing irish]

FWIW, a very close friend of mine lost his wife to suicide some years back. She was Roman Catholic and had a Church funeral. My friend talked with the priest and a number of Church elders after the event and they all assured him that her soul was in Heaven.

Then there's the story of the rural Indiana Catholic priest of my grandfather's parish who died as a result of being drunk (hit by a train.) The Church wouldn't bury him in consecrated ground and tortured his family by saying that the old padre was surely in Hell. So go figure.

 

[Buck]

Copperpot,
I'm sorry for your loss.
I'm familiar with the catechism. I am not religious and I don't believe in god, but I was raised Catholic. Paragraph 1859 defines mortal sin as committed knowingly and willfully. Diminished mental capacity mitigates those conditions.

 

[writing irish]

The Anglican Church sucked big donkey balls until some time in the 20th century. Its origins are embarassing. If I'd been alive back in those days, I don't know what I would have done...maybe just held my nose and gone along with the Roman Church or just said "**** it" and become a free love Anabaptist.

Check out 'The Tailor King: The Rise and Fall of the Anabaptist Kingdom of Munster' by Anthony Arthur. Not a gripping read, but one heck of an interesting bit of history.

Sounds interesting, though after a quick net search, I'm disappointed that it's the German rather than the Irish Munster. Not suprised though, since my Irish history's sharper than my German and I sure don't remember any Anabaptist kingdoms.

 

[Stone Cane]

religion is a ****

 

[Buck]

The Anglican Church sucked big donkey balls until some time in the 20th century. Its origins are embarassing. If I'd been alive back in those days, I don't know what I would have done...maybe just held my nose and gone along with the Roman Church or just said "**** it" and become a free love Anabaptist.

Check out 'The Tailor King: The Rise and Fall of the Anabaptist Kingdom of Munster' by Anthony Arthur. Not a gripping read, but one heck of an interesting bit of history.

Sounds interesting, though after a quick net search, I'm disappointed that it's the German rather than the Irish Munster. Not suprised though, since my Irish history's sharper than my German and I sure don't remember any Anabaptist kingdoms.

Definitely not an Irish thing. Our ancestors were too priest-ridden for any such stuff as Anabaptism.
Anyway, I came across the book by accident several years ago, knew nothing about the subject and found it very interesting.

 

[Angola!]

Here is my sister's response to HB's original question about free will. It doesn't necessarily get into the Catholic part of it, because she is a Nazarene pastor, but it is an interesting look, I thought.


I believe in free will. Free will is the ability to choose God's way or my way. When God created the earth He didn't make Adam and Eve to be His servants who did whatever, whenever and however He wanted. God allowed them to take and eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In other words God left their options open to them. Because they chose to separate themselves from God and we choose the same thing there is sin in the world. Sin isn't just my bad choices or your bad choices it is cumulative and systemic.

Sin affects every person, it affects our physical bodies, our emotions, our relationships, everything. The reason for this is that the image of God in us has been marred by our decision to separate ourselves from God. That means that people get sick and have cancer and die. Did God choose that for the person? I don't believe so. I believe failing bodies are from the brokeness in the world that was brought on by human choice not by God's choice. I also don't believe that if you sin you get cancer. Our bodies are no longer how God designed them to be, they aren't perfect, and so they do things like grow cancer cells.

All of that is to give you an idea of what I believe about free will.

Many of the distinctions the people are talking about have to do with Greek thought and the idea of omnipotence, omniscience, and ominpresence. Those are not words found in Scripture, those are philosophical ideas that have been placed alongside the scripture to try to engage what seems to be taking place there.

When people say that God will's everything they are referring to a belief in the omniscience of God. God knows everything and so He must choose everything. If we really believe that, we are saying that God chooses for children to be abused, women to be beaten, and people who are innocent to be murdered. I can't see why anyone would want to worship that God! He sounds more like Satan than God to me.

I believe that God's will is for all people to know Him and to have their lives transformed by the saving power of Jesus in His life, death and resurrection. We see that through the whole message of scripture. God's will was always to bring people closer to Himself. That is why He chose a people, that is why they were set apart, that is why He gave judges, kings, prophets and a Messiah--to open up their eyes so they could see Him and see what life with Him would look like. If that is the case then the idea of God's will being for you or me to drop dead doesn't really fit that very well.

People use the will of God as a way to explain what they don't understand. It is also interesting to lay aside all of this the idea of ancient thought. In the bible people attributed everything to God or gods because they had no other basis of understanding. There is a hurricane, God did it or the gods did it. Now we know that hurricanes come from specific types of elements colliding in the atmosphere. We understand that the earth operates by certain rules which I believe God created and were harmed when we turned from God--but I don't believe God stirs up the skies to cause hurricanes.

The idea of the will of God, and what will be will be is ancient, almost primitive thinking. It says that all things are caused by God. I don't think God causes, I think God effects things. God doesn't cause a car crash but He can effect what happens to us as we recover from our injuries. God doesn't cause the flood in New Orleans but He can effect the people that are in that area to bring about change and renewal. If God caused things there wouldn't be free will and the bible is clear that there is free will. However, God does cause good to take place. So it is a hard line I guess.

I believe God can cause anything to happen but it has to be in line with the redemptive plan He has for us. Jeremiah 29:11, "I know the plans I have for you says the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future." How could that mean God wills all things and God wills people to kill themselves?

I don't know if any of that makes sense, maybe I am a heretic or a fool.