SI: Alex Rodriguez tested positive for steroids in '03...

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Holy ****.

There should be asterisks all over the record books now. Bonds, A-Rod, McGwire, Sosa ...

Aaron should get his record back, Ruth should be second and Mays third. The rest, **** em.
 
dignan said:
Holy ****.

There should be asterisks all over the record books now. Bonds, A-Rod, McGwire, Sosa ...

Aaron should get his record back, Ruth should be second and Mays third. The rest, **** em.

ARod broke some of Aaron's records?
 
Just want to chime in that if it wasn't for Verducci, who knows if baseball would have ever addressed the steroids issue? He started the ball rolling, and deserves some credit for that.
 
Angola! said:
dignan said:
Holy ****.

There should be asterisks all over the record books now. Bonds, A-Rod, McGwire, Sosa ...

Aaron should get his record back, Ruth should be second and Mays third. The rest, **** em.

ARod broke some of Aaron's records?

Sort of inevitable, no?
 
1. Bonds' attorneys are going to be all over this. Selena might wind up in a Judith Miller spot.
2. In my day job, I read a lot, a whole lot, of sports science and sports medicine journals. And steroids are like bathtub gin going up against Chateau Petrus compared to what science is capable of now in terms of altering athletic performance. There is no doubt in my mind that there were genetically engineered athletes at Beijing.
So what comes next? A mandatory DNA sample given to the government at birth to preserve the sanctity of baseball records?
 
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I know ESPN will make this a big deal, but it really shouldn't be imo. I understand A-Rod was probably going to break Aaron's record, but steriods were obviously rampant among the eilte players during that time so there's no reason to be suprised. But this will still suprise many. All you can do is hope a strong policy will filter out all the cheats so we can move on into the next era.
 
dignan said:
Holy ****.

There should be asterisks all over the record books now. Bonds, A-Rod, McGwire, Sosa ...

Aaron should get his record back, Ruth should be second and Mays third. The rest, **** em.
Boggles my mind that anybody can be shocked by this. Look at the era Rodriguez played in.
 
spnited said:
Any question that Jeter's name comes out soon as well?

That was my first thought, as well.

I think those will be the names that shock people. When someone like Maddux or Jeter or one of the so-called good guys get named.

Oh, and I absolutely can't wait until Schilling is named. That will be funny.
 
21 said:
Double Down said:
21 said:
The list of the 104 players whose urine samples tested positive is under seal in California. However, two sources familiar with the evidence that the government has gathered in its investigation of steroid use in baseball and two other sources with knowledge of the testing results have told Sports Illustrated that Rodriguez is one of the 104 players identified as having tested positive, in his case for testosterone and an anabolic steroid known by the brand name Primobolan. All four sources spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitive nature of the evidence.

Not doubting the veracity of the reporting.

But four sources, all suddenly leaking sealed evidence to SI?

A fair point, but what if they've been chasing this for two years, and got four sources over that time period? We don't really have a time line here of how the story was put together or what finally let them go forward with it. I think if you're going to make this kind of claim against the best player in the game, it's probably the kind of thing you need to be airtight before you go forward. Maybe SI editors said they needed four sources to go with it. And they finally got the fourth this week.

The whole 'investigation' has been such a farce from the start. How many names have already been revealed through leaks and the Mitchell ordeal? And just now, this comes out? 104 names, and only ARod revealed this time?

And now what? You have two people 'familiar' with the evidence and two more 'with knowledge' of the results. Why even bother to seal the evidence if everyone who sees it has the compelling need to leak it?

There is again some major law-breaking going on here in the leaking of these test results, assuming that this story is accurate. These records are all under seal.

This is all wrapped in a legal battle over the seizure of the tests that likely won't be settled short of the Supreme Court. The case is before the entire 9th circuit currently (the legal term is en banc) where there are indications it will rule on behalf of the players. The players won a lower court ruling, it was reversed by a three-judge panel from the 9th circuit on a 2-1 vote and is now being heard by the full circuit.

The government had search warrants to seize test results of the 10 players involved in Balco but instead went into computer files and took all of the results of testing that players agreed to submit to anonymously as part of the 2003 survey testing that led to implementation of full drug testing program with penalties the following year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3780351

An issue that everyone should be concerned about is that a ruling in favor of the government would give criminal investigators carte blanche to go into computers and seize records of hundreds or thousands of people in places like hospitals, telephone companies and banks (in addition to labs) -- all based on a warrant for a single person's record.

Another issue of genuine concern if the government's position is upheld is that such a ruling would have a chilling effect on all confidential drug testing that is done by employers and insurers. Why should a union -- or an individual employee, for that matter -- agree on a good-faith basis to confidential drug testing when, in fact, no such guarantees can be made by a private or public employer? Any human resources person will tell you that confidentiality is the cornerstone of an EAP.

As a side matter, I don't know who leaked the information but is part of a disturbing number of leaks that have come as a result of the Balco investigation and its various offshoots. I do believe that the aforementioned Jeff Novitzky, who was made to look like a hero in Game of Shadows, has been up to his elbows in much of the less-than-ethical prosecution of these cases.

Interestingly Yahoo reported last week that Novitzky (along with other IRS agents) was the subject of a Treasury Dept. investigation into misconduct and missing funds in the Balco investigation. More interesting is that nobody else in the media has picked up the report. Unfortunately, stories that raise any of these constitutional or investigative misconduct issues don't flow very well into the seemingly favored narrative that Novitzky and friends as heroes for freeing the sports world of PEDs. The constitutional and misconduct issues are far more important in the larger scheme of things, just not as salacious.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=li-novitzky020309&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

A disturbing part of this is that the leaks have typically occurred (like this one) when the government's case begins to look shaky and there's growing fear that it may not prevail in court. I believe that there's a feeling on the part of the investigators that rather than go down quietly it should toss every piece of evidence to the public, regardless of its veracity or the legality of its seizure.

I'm not going to get involved in a long discussion about this on SportsJournalists.com today -- it's Saturday and I've got things to do -- but the fact is that these issues were raised -- and shouted down -- here several years ago because, well, everyone wanted to believe that Novitzky was a golden boy and the Game of Shadows was the definitive statement about the Balco investigation when, in fact, GOS was reported from the government's viewpoint (yes, along with help from a rogue defense attorney).
 
Why don't we just proceed on the following basis. Everybody did it. Therefore, throwing stones at individuals is pointless. We can eventually come up with a reasonable mathematical formula to reassess statistics. Otherwise, we can just move on, and assume current policies deter mass steroid use.
Since moralizing about the sins of others is a universally popular human activity, I have no hope my policy will be followed.
 
Armchair_QB said:
I have to say that I'm shocked that MLB Network has pre-empted its regular programming to air coverage of this story.

Right now they're talking to Larry Bowa and they had Jon Hart on earlier.

I wonder if the NFL Network would do the same if this was a football story.

Just turned on MLB network and am very surprised, even impressed, that they're on this.
 
I agree with Cranberry. It seems pretty interesting this comes out this week. All I've seen this past week is headline after headline about how the Bonds case is falling apart.

So, if the Feds aren't going to be able to convict anyone, I guess they will be vindictive and try to bring down as many of the superstars as they can.
 
Zombie Vonnegut said:
spnited said:
Any question that Jeter's name comes out soon as well?

The intangibles made tangible at last!

clapping.gif
 
Why do I get a feeling that Torre might have told Verducci that A-Rod is on the list?

I have no problem with this coming out, but I want the other 103 names as well. I don't believe in this "Hang the superstar and forget about everyone else" bull****, because if there are that many names out there, I'm guessing A-Rod isn't the only big name on the list.
 
Let's see. There are 1200 guys on the sum total of the 40 man rosters. There are 750 on the sum total of the 25-man rosters. So between 8-14 percent of all players failed a test they knew was coming, because their union agreed to it in 2002.
Ring Lardner would be amused, but not surprised.
 
Terrible story. I like A-Rod, but you know if he does break the all-time HR record, and you know he will, that positive steriod test will always haunt him. I don't know what this does for his chances in the HOF, though.
 
Michael_ Gee said:
Why don't we just proceed on the following basis. Everybody did it. Therefore, throwing stones at individuals is pointless. We can eventually come up with a reasonable mathematical formula to reassess statistics. Otherwise, we can just move on, and assume current policies deter mass steroid use.
Since moralizing about the sins of others is a universally popular human activity, I have no hope my policy will be followed.

With the advances in science - mentioned by YOU in this thread - we can assume nothing.

"Everybody did it" is just not good enough. If there's a rule against performance-enhancing drugs, it should be enforced. If a player used such substances before baseball (laughably) established rules and punishments, then that's still a story. And in a sport which holds its individual records so sacred, I am very interested, both as a fan and journalist, in just who was cheating. And if we're spending time on some mathematical formula to re-assess statistics, then frankly I will throw stones at the individuals who necessitated such a move.

And I also want to see the rest of the names. Shine a spotlight on all of them, from the petulant star to the utility player. As a journalist, this interests me infinitely more than just the day-to-day of the yearly 162-game schedule.
 

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