Session 3, 100 pitches

[Clever username]

Boston's Matsuzaka threw 103 pitches in his third session of the spring. I understand he has always done this (250 pitches in one day in high school), but I can't help but want to start a pool on when he's going to throw his arm out. In Japan he was in a six-man rotation and an automatic day off. That's seven days off. What's he going to do in a longer season on four days rest. I just don't see him holding up. Maybe he will this year, but his arm is going to fall off at some point before the end of his Red Sox contract.

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=184561&format=&page=1

 

[wickedwritah]

He threw a 17-inning complete game on a Friday, pitched in relief on Saturday and had a complete-game win on Sunday. Nuts.

 

[Corky Ramirez up on 94th St.]

Perhaps this should go on the useless information thread, but one of my favorite baseball stats is Nolan Ryan threw 235 pitches in one game (!) and got the win. Of course, the game went 15 innings, and it was in 1974 I think, but still...235 pitches. That is just amazing.

 

[spnited]

And when exactly did Nolan Ryan's arm fall off?

What too many people don't understand is you build arm strength by pithcing...not be being limitted to 70 pitches the first time out, 75 the second etc. This is the Tommy John (post-surgery) theory... the more you throw the arm-strength you build, the more capable you are of pitching deep into games.

The idea of pitch counts and the 100-pitch limit on some pitchers is why there are so many 6 inning starters and so few complete games any more. If you teach your starting pitchers at a young age that the idea is to pitch as long as you can as well as you can, you build stronger pitchers.

Guys don't blow their arms out because they throw too many pitches. They blow their arms out because they're throwing splits and sliders and hard curves with bad mechanics. And because they're babied at the Class A level and when they have to extend themselves at the major league level, they do not have the arm strength to do it.

 

[wickedwritah]

Agreed that pitchers are babied nowadays. Clemens is an example of a dude that used to toss 120 to 130 pitches on average per start, and his arm's still around at 43 or whatever.

 

[BYH]

Agreed that pitchers are babied nowadays. Clemens is an example of a dude that used to toss 120 to 130 pitches on average per start, and his arm's still around at 43 or whatever.

Yeah, I think his.........advances in conditioning..........has something to do with that.

 

[Freelance Hack]

Yeah, too many pitchers are coddled, but the bigger problem is a lack of fundamentals and If your mechanics are sound, then you can throw forever.

Pitch counts should be just for developing arms, and breaking balls should be thrown by those 14 and older.

 

[wickedwritah]

Yeah, I think his.........advances in conditioning..........has something to do with that.

Before he, ahem, bulked up, Clemens regularly threw 110- or 120-pitch games. I remember one game he tossed against the Tigers, was '91 or '92, he threw 165 pitches, complete game win on a 90-degree day in mid-summer. Toss around the 'roids insinuations all you want, and the guy may be a **** as some say, but dude's arm always has been strong.

 

[boots]

I don't believe in the pitch-count bull****. Some guys have rubber arms. Others don't. Let him pitch. Obviously he's in much better shape that the American pitchers.

 

[Rough Mix]

I want to know what Clemens thinks. I hope he posts. He's usually very thoughtful.

 

[boots]

He threw to Kolby today.

 

[Rough Mix]

I bet Deb remembered to pack the laptop.

 

[Clever username]

Yeah, I think his.........advances in conditioning..........has something to do with that.

Before he, ahem, bulked up, Clemens regularly threw 110- or 120-pitch games. I remember one game he tossed against the Tigers, was '91 or '92, he threw 165 pitches, complete game win on a 90-degree day in mid-summer. Toss around the 'roids insinuations all you want, and the guy may be a **** as some say, but dude's arm always has been strong.

Clemens is a rare breed, steroids or not. His mechanics are exactly the same (and near perfect) on every pitch. Very, very few pitchers are able to do that. If Matsuzaka can do that, great for him, but if not that workload is going to catch up with him.

 

[Jake_Taylor]

And when exactly did Nolan Ryan's arm fall off?

What too many people don't understand is you build arm strength by pithcing...not be being limitted to 70 pitches the first time out, 75 the second etc. This is the Tommy John (post-surgery) theory... the more you throw the arm-strength you build, the more capable you are of pitching deep into games.

The idea of pitch counts and the 100-pitch limit on some pitchers is why there are so many 6 inning starters and so few complete games any more. If you teach your starting pitchers at a young age that the idea is to pitch as long as you can as well as you can, you build stronger pitchers.

Guys don't blow their arms out because they throw too many pitches. They blow their arms out because they're throwing splits and sliders and hard curves with bad mechanics. And because they're babied at the Class A level and when they have to extend themselves at the major league level, they do not have the arm strength to do it.

This is right on. I was sitting in a minor league clubhouse a couple of summers ago talking to the manager about some of his pitchers and he gave me one the best quotes ever that I couldn't use.

"These young guys don't learn a ****in' thing in their first 50 pitches. If I don't leave 'em out there for at least 70 I ain't doing a god damned thing for the organization."

 

[shotglass]

I understand he has always done this (250 pitches in one day in high school), but I can't help but want to start a pool on when he's going to throw his arm out.

If you believe the second part of that, then you don't understand the first part of it.

 

[Tom Petty]

I don't believe in the pitch-count bull****. Some guys have rubber arms. Others don't. Let him pitch. Obviously he's in much better shape that the American pitchers.

ask a major league pitcher how his arm feels at the end of the season and you'll soon believe in pitch counts.

 

[wickedwritah]

ask a major league pitcher how his arm feels at the end of the season and you'll soon believe in pitch counts.

Tom, that may hold true for many guys, but I don't think it's a hard-and-fast rule. There are some guys who can pitch until they're damn near 50. Of course, they're freaks of nature. Ryan was one, and I wouldn't be surprised if Clemens somehow sticks around for another couple years. Wasn't Jesse Orosco like 47 by the time he retired?

And if you're Tim Wakefield, you still can be effective at 50 if you wanted to with that knuckler.

 

[CollegeJournalist]

I don't believe in the pitch-count bull****. Some guys have rubber arms. Others don't. Let him pitch. Obviously he's in much better shape that the American pitchers.

It's easier for a guy like Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens and Nolan Ryan, since they rely on mostly fastballs. There's little you can do to tear your arm up if you're throwing mostly fastballs.

On the same token, guys like Tom Glavine and Greg Maddux have lasted because they are mostly fastball/changeup guys, and they have outstanding accuracy. So they minimize stress on their arms and pitches.

Pitch counts and mechanics mean a lot more to guys that rely on pitches that are tough on your arm, particularly splitters--the worst pitch on your arm if you don't throw it with perfect mechanics.

 

[Mayfly]

Pitch counts really just matter on the team behind the pitcher as well as the pitcher. If the team behind you cannot field, you are going to throw more pitches to more batters. You could be a stud pitcher but have no defense behind you, i.e. Brandon Webb.

 

[Batman]

I don't believe in the pitch-count bull****. Some guys have rubber arms. Others don't. Let him pitch. Obviously he's in much better shape that the American pitchers.

It's easier for a guy like Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens and Nolan Ryan, since they rely on mostly fastballs. There's little you can do to tear your arm up if you're throwing mostly fastballs.

On the same token, guys like Tom Glavine and Greg Maddux have lasted because they are mostly fastball/changeup guys, and they have outstanding accuracy. So they minimize stress on their arms and pitches.

Pitch counts and mechanics mean a lot more to guys that rely on pitches that are tough on your arm, particularly splitters--the worst pitch on your arm if you don't throw it with perfect mechanics.

That's the real reason behind it. Fastballs do little to hurt an arm. A major league pitcher could throw 150 of those a game if he wanted to. The stress on the elbow from curves, sliders, splitters, etc., is what gets them injured.
And there is some logic to the "pitching makes 'em stronger argument." When Leo Mazzone was with the Braves, their pitchers threw hard just about every day between starts. And through the 90s, not too many of their core guys had serious injuries, as I recall. Smoltz did, but not until he'd been in the league 10 years.