RIP Norman Schwarzkopf

[Pilot]

excellent point. Schwarzkopf kicked the crap out of an undermanned, under trained poorly equipped and unmotivated army by essentially avoiding a head on confrontation and picking the Iraqis off from behind and in isolated pockets of action. Great strategy but hardly the stuff of myths and legends.

And if he were truly the military hero he's made out to be, he would have been able to take Iraq in the first war. Once again politics reigned over military strategy

I'm sure there's an example, but what general's finest moment WAS a head-on attack against the bulk of an enemy army in prepared defensive positions?

 

[heyabbott]

excellent point. Schwarzkopf kicked the crap out of an undermanned, under trained poorly equipped and unmotivated army by essentially avoiding a head on confrontation and picking the Iraqis off from behind and in isolated pockets of action. Great strategy but hardly the stuff of myths and legends.

And if he were truly the military hero he's made out to be, he would have been able to take Iraq in the first war. Once again politics reigned over military strategy

I'm sure there's an example, but what general's finest moment WAS a head-on attack against the bulk of an enemy army in prepared defensive positions?

D-Day

Norm was Ditka and the '91 US Army was the '85 Bears and the Iraqi Army was Auburn, a good solid SEC program, but no match for '85 Bears

 

[Pilot]

excellent point. Schwarzkopf kicked the crap out of an undermanned, under trained poorly equipped and unmotivated army by essentially avoiding a head on confrontation and picking the Iraqis off from behind and in isolated pockets of action. Great strategy but hardly the stuff of myths and legends.

And if he were truly the military hero he's made out to be, he would have been able to take Iraq in the first war. Once again politics reigned over military strategy

I'm sure there's an example, but what general's finest moment WAS a head-on attack against the bulk of an enemy army in prepared defensive positions?

D-Day

Norm was Ditka and the '91 US Army was the '85 Bears and the Iraqi Army was Auburn, a good solid SEC program, but no match for '85 Bears

A huge part of D-Day's success hinged on massive deception efforts to convince the Germans that the invasion was coming elsewhere.

Obviously clearing the Iraqis out of Kuwait with the arsenal at his disposal isn't among the world's greatest military achievements (or this country's), but I don't think he loses points for how he did it.

 

[Armchair_QB]

RIP to not just an American hero, but someone who helped make it OK to be proud of America again.

Oh, gimme a break. Were you ashamed to be an American before 1991?

No offense to the ole general, but what the hell did he do that would cause one to change their fundamental view on whether it's ok to be proud to be an american or not?

That take came largely from Schwarzkopf himself. In his autobiography he talked about how Vietnam vets thanked him for changing the public's perception of the American military from a bunch of drugged-out bungling losers (post-Vietnam) to a bunch of go-anywhere, can-do defenders of freedom.
Maybe that perception was changing through the 80s, but there was still some skepticism leading into Gulf War I. The U.S. military hadn't really been tested on a large scale since Vietnam. The way it went into Iraq and kicked ass for all the world to see -- and fighting the good fight, like we did in World War II, without the murkier motives of our current conflicts -- elevated the United States to a place it hadn't been in a very long time.
I'd go out on a limb and say it's as popular as the country has been, on a global scale, since the post-WWII years.
So, yes, I'll give Schwarzkopf credit for playing a large role in that time period.

Fair enough, although I'd point out that serves as an explanation for why Vets may've been more proud of the U.S. Military after the Vietnam stigma, but not why the rest of us should've felt like it was "OK to be feel proud to be an American again."

And, fwiw, the notion that Gulf War I went so well because it was better run, or the US military performed so much better, or because of any Schwarzkopf expertise, is largely bull****. The reason GWI went better was quite simply because it was a thousand times EASIER to win than the wars that went less well.

We had the ENTIRE DAMN WORLD behind our back against one little pariah state and, to declare victory, all we had to do was remove Saddam from Kuwait and get his back where he belonged. It is SO much easier to win a war when you've those narrow and clearly defined goals and your job is merely to REMOVE the invader, instead of BEING the invader and occupier as we attempted in Vietnam, Iraq II, and Afghanistan.

If you want to give Schwarzkopf credit for supposedly being smarter than our generals in our "quagmire" wars, fine by me. But, truth is, it's largely BS. His war went better simply because he was assigned a far easier task.

excellent point. Schwarzkopf kicked the crap out of an undermanned, under trained poorly equipped and unmotivated army by essentially avoiding a head on confrontation and picking the Iraqis off from behind and in isolated pockets of action. Great strategy but hardly the stuff of myths and legends.

And if he were truly the military hero he's made out to be, he would have been able to take Iraq in the first war. Once again politics reigned over military strategy

Of course in the run-up to the war all we heard was how battle-hardened the Iraqis were because of their war with Iran. It was never true but it didn't stop the pre-war story from being reported that way.

 

[Batman]

excellent point. Schwarzkopf kicked the crap out of an undermanned, under trained poorly equipped and unmotivated army by essentially avoiding a head on confrontation and picking the Iraqis off from behind and in isolated pockets of action. Great strategy but hardly the stuff of myths and legends.

And if he were truly the military hero he's made out to be, he would have been able to take Iraq in the first war. Once again politics reigned over military strategy

I'm sure there's an example, but what general's finest moment WAS a head-on attack against the bulk of an enemy army in prepared defensive positions?

D-Day

Norm was Ditka and the '91 US Army was the '85 Bears and the Iraqi Army was Auburn, a good solid SEC program, but no match for '85 Bears

A huge part of D-Day's success hinged on massive deception efforts to convince the Germans that the invasion was coming elsewhere.

Obviously clearing the Iraqis out of Kuwait with the arsenal at his disposal isn't among the world's greatest military achievements (or this country's), but I don't think he loses points for how he did it.

The airborne units that dropped behind enemy lines and picked off key positions and access routes also played a big role in D-Day's success.

What Schwarzkopf and the U.S. did in Desert Storm was remarkable. The U.S. suffered more casualties in non-combat accidents than they did from enemy fire. That, in and of itself, changed the way wars are fought -- and maybe not for the better.
Ever since then, there's been a perception that war can (and perhaps should) be bloodless to Americans. It's a stupid idea, of course, but Desert Storm was so easy that it made people think that way. It's a big part of the reason why the Somalia mission, the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan have been looked at as such colossal failures. It also might have made it easier for the decision-makers to enter those wars, thinking it'd be as easy as Desert Storm, rather than look at thousands of years of military history and realize that DS was an aberration.

 

[dixiehack]

RIP to not just an American hero, but someone who helped make it OK to be proud of America again.

Oh, gimme a break. Were you ashamed to be an American before 1991?

No offense to the ole general, but what the hell did he do that would cause one to change their fundamental view on whether it's ok to be proud to be an american or not?

That take came largely from Schwarzkopf himself. In his autobiography he talked about how Vietnam vets thanked him for changing the public's perception of the American military from a bunch of drugged-out bungling losers (post-Vietnam) to a bunch of go-anywhere, can-do defenders of freedom.
Maybe that perception was changing through the 80s, but there was still some skepticism leading into Gulf War I. The U.S. military hadn't really been tested on a large scale since Vietnam. The way it went into Iraq and kicked ass for all the world to see -- and fighting the good fight, like we did in World War II, without the murkier motives of our current conflicts -- elevated the United States to a place it hadn't been in a very long time.
I'd go out on a limb and say it's as popular as the country has been, on a global scale, since the post-WWII years.
So, yes, I'll give Schwarzkopf credit for playing a large role in that time period.

Fair enough, although I'd point out that serves as an explanation for why Vets may've been more proud of the U.S. Military after the Vietnam stigma, but not why the rest of us should've felt like it was "OK to be feel proud to be an American again."

And, fwiw, the notion that Gulf War I went so well because it was better run, or the US military performed so much better, or because of any Schwarzkopf expertise, is largely bull****. The reason GWI went better was quite simply because it was a thousand times EASIER to win than the wars that went less well.

We had the ENTIRE DAMN WORLD behind our back against one little pariah state and, to declare victory, all we had to do was remove Saddam from Kuwait and get his back where he belonged. It is SO much easier to win a war when you've those narrow and clearly defined goals and your job is merely to REMOVE the invader, instead of BEING the invader and occupier as we attempted in Vietnam, Iraq II, and Afghanistan.

If you want to give Schwarzkopf credit for supposedly being smarter than our generals in our "quagmire" wars, fine by me. But, truth is, it's largely BS. His war went better simply because he was assigned a far easier task.

excellent point. Schwarzkopf kicked the crap out of an undermanned, under trained poorly equipped and unmotivated army by essentially avoiding a head on confrontation and picking the Iraqis off from behind and in isolated pockets of action. Great strategy but hardly the stuff of myths and legends.

And if he were truly the military hero he's made out to be, he would have been able to take Iraq in the first war. Once again politics reigned over military strategy

Of course in the run-up to the war all we heard was how battle-hardened the Iraqis were because of their war with Iran. It was never true but it didn't stop the pre-war story from being reported that way.

That's what you get for asking Lou Holtz to assess the enemy.

 

[Gold]

excellent point. Schwarzkopf kicked the crap out of an undermanned, under trained poorly equipped and unmotivated army by essentially avoiding a head on confrontation and picking the Iraqis off from behind and in isolated pockets of action. Great strategy but hardly the stuff of myths and legends.

And if he were truly the military hero he's made out to be, he would have been able to take Iraq in the first war. Once again politics reigned over military strategy

I'm sure there's an example, but what general's finest moment WAS a head-on attack against the bulk of an enemy army in prepared defensive positions?

D-Day

Norm was Ditka and the '91 US Army was the '85 Bears and the Iraqi Army was Auburn, a good solid SEC program, but no match for '85 Bears

I think a better comparison would be that the Iraqi Army was the 1-15 Jets coached by Rich Kotite.

 

[Pilot]

That war was the first major event I was old enough not only to remember, but to breathlessly pay attention to. I begged my parents to stay up late and watch Nightline so I could, ya know, watch the war. We didn't have cable, and I remember my dad was out of town in a hotel the night it started and man I was I jealous that he had CNN and I didn't. It was in those weeks I decided to fly a Stealth fighter, since none of those got shot down and I think at least one of every other type of fighter did. (I didn't go back to check that "fact." Also, bad eyes and science requirements led me away from life as a fighter pilot. My handle has been Pilot(Something) ever since I started on AOL when I was young, though, and that followed me to SJ.)

Anyway, I remember the Iraqis supposedly had superior artillery to ours, according to the news. I remember being pretty worried about that and the Republican Guard.

Did anyone else buy the Desert Storm trading cards? Oh man, I thought those were the coolest things ever.