Plane, helicopter collide over Hudson River

[spup1122]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-ap-us-hudson-mid-air-collision,0,6082508.story

Probable fatalities, according to the story.

 

[imjustagirl]

Damn. Helicopters freak me out. It said one survivor has been pulled out of the water...I hope there are more.

 

[WildBillyCrazyCat]

Very sad to hear.

I've flown that Hudson River route out of Teterboro a few times myself, and it's a very busy corridor below the restricted airspace of the NYC airports. Surprised this hasn't happened sooner, really.

 

[spnited]

Liberty Tours helicopter with 5 passengers and a pilot...small aircraft out of Teterboro (right down the street from me), unknown number of passengers.
Only one rescue so far, no bodies recovered yet, very little signs of debris in the water.

When I lived close to the Hudson, I used to watch the number of choppers and small planes going up and down eveyr day and wonder how this didn't happen at least once a month. Very busy low flight area.

 

[Johnny Dangerously]

Liberty Tours helicopter with 5 passengers and a pilot...small aircraft out of Teterboro (right down the street from me), unknown number of passengers.
Only one rescue so far, no bodies recovered yet, very little signs of debris in the water.

When I lived close to the Hudson, I used to watch the number of choppers and small planes going up and down eveyr day and wonder how this didn't happen at least once a month. Very busy low flight area.

I don't live anywhere near there, and I never have, but I had those same thoughts after reading this in 1996:

http://www.ece.ubc.ca/~jeffj/ny_tracon.html

 

[spnited]

9 presumed dead, including one child aboard the plane and 5 Italian tourists on the chopper.
2 bodies have been recovered, so far only one survivor rescued.

It is now characterized as a recovery mission, not a rescue mission.
Very sad.

 

[Small Town Guy]

Those early reports of a survivor were apparently wrong. No survivors on either aircraft. Which makes sense. Seems like an impossible situation to survive, from the collision, to the impact, to the submersion.

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

chilling video

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Video-Captures-Hudson-River-Midair-Collision-Helicopter-Plane-53162997.html

 

[JackReacher]

chilling video

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Video-Captures-Hudson-River-Midair-Collision-Helicopter-Plane-53162997.html

wow.

 

[Songbird]

On the wire this morning.


WASHINGTON (AP) — The air traffic controller handling the small plane involved in a deadly crash with a helicopter over the Hudson River was chatting on the telephone about a dead cat at the airport and initially failed to warn the pilot of other aircraft in his path, officials say.

The controller tried unsuccessfully to contact the pilot before the accident, officials said Friday, but the plane collided with a tour helicopter over the Hudson River, killing nine people.

The controller handling the plane and his supervisor at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey at the time of the accident a week ago have been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration.

 

[Simon_Cowbell]

On the wire this morning.


WASHINGTON (AP) — The air traffic controller handling the small plane involved in a deadly crash with a helicopter over the Hudson River was chatting on the telephone about a dead cat at the airport and initially failed to warn the pilot of other aircraft in his path, officials say.

The controller tried unsuccessfully to contact the pilot before the accident, officials said Friday, but the plane collided with a tour helicopter over the Hudson River, killing nine people.

The controller handling the plane and his supervisor at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey at the time of the accident a week ago have been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration.

I wonder if this goofball was the putz who initially was in on the Sullenberger ditch landing discussions....

 

[Del_B_Vista]

On the wire this morning.


WASHINGTON (AP) — The air traffic controller handling the small plane involved in a deadly crash with a helicopter over the Hudson River was chatting on the telephone about a dead cat at the airport and initially failed to warn the pilot of other aircraft in his path, officials say.

The controller tried unsuccessfully to contact the pilot before the accident, officials said Friday, but the plane collided with a tour helicopter over the Hudson River, killing nine people.

The controller handling the plane and his supervisor at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey at the time of the accident a week ago have been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration.

I wonder if this goofball was the putz who initially was in on the Sullenberger ditch landing discussions....

I don't remember there being any mention of putziness of the flight controller in the Hudson landing. A review of the excellent William Langewiesche article in Vanity Fair confirms:
http://www.vanityfair.com/style/features/2009/06/us_airways200906?printable=true&currentPage=all

Long article, well worth the read.

 

[OTD]

On the wire this morning.


WASHINGTON (AP) — The air traffic controller handling the small plane involved in a deadly crash with a helicopter over the Hudson River was chatting on the telephone about a dead cat at the airport and initially failed to warn the pilot of other aircraft in his path, officials say.

The controller tried unsuccessfully to contact the pilot before the accident, officials said Friday, but the plane collided with a tour helicopter over the Hudson River, killing nine people.

The controller handling the plane and his supervisor at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey at the time of the accident a week ago have been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration.

I wonder if this goofball was the putz who initially was in on the Sullenberger ditch landing discussions....

I don't remember there being any mention of putziness of the flight controller in the Hudson landing. A review of the excellent William Langewiesche article in Vanity Fair confirms:
http://www.vanityfair.com/style/features/2009/06/us_airways200906?printable=true&currentPage=all

Long article, well worth the read.

Thanks for that, Del.

 

[User 1019]

I'm writing this without knowing much about the NYC airspace structure. Just what I can find with a cursory online glance. Don't know about any normal corridors in and around the area that would've been used in this case.

Not exactly sure about what altitude they were at when the crash happened, but best I can tell from looking at the NY aeronautical sectional charts (what we use for flight planning, airspace identification, routes, etc.), the Hudson is only controlled airspace above 500 feet. I think they were below 500 feet, though, just looking at the video.

So, if they were below 500 feet, the pilots were in uncontrolled airspace and were responsible for their own aircraft and obstacle avoidance. There could still be some type of local flying regulations that account for air traffic controller, or ATC, flight following.

Above 500 feet, they would be in Class B airspace -- the airspace designated for the busiest airports (of course) in the country. That means they were supposedly continuously monitored by controllers (not guys in the airport tower, but people in a dark cave looking at radar screens). When aircraft are within so many feet (of altitude) of one another and within a certain distance, a collision alarm will sound. Sometimes we can even hear them going off in the background when we talk to the controllers (not the most settling sound when you're in the clouds, by the way).

Someone should've caught that.

However, even when in controlled airspace, when a pilot is in VMC, that is flying in visual meteorological conditions (good weather), the pilot in command is still ultimately responsible for aircraft and obstacle avoidance, required to maintain an airspeed to "see and avoid," and FAA regulated cloud clearances.

When two aircraft are converging, the aircraft on the right has the right of way. In this case, the airplane had the right of way.

Everyone in both aircraft was probably looking at the Statue of Liberty. Sadly, this included the pilots.

Having written all that, I just found a special navigational chart for helicopters.

It seems that helicopters have the right of way at 500 feet and below. There ARE special corridors for helicopters that are as follows: South bound, 500 feet and below, on the west side of the river, then skirting the east side of Ellis Island; North bound, 500 and below, along the east bank of the river. Seems the plane should've been above that.

There's a half-moon shaped airspace exclusion that makes that area of the river (presumably for air tours) controlled airspace beginning at 1,100 feet above the ground and extending to 7,000 above the ground, before it changes to another class.

 

[User 1019]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/08/16/helicopter.crash.tou.cnn

CNN report says they're all operating VFR, and without assistance from controllers unless it gets busy.

Good report, and gives a pretty damned good representation of how hard it is to see other aircraft when they dip below the horizon.

Here's the standard airspace diagram that helps understand how aircraft can operate "beneath" controlled airspace. Class B is pretty much all over the NYC area, and as long as you're beneath the shelves, you can operate freely. The first shelf of Class B surrounding Newark and the NYC airports is 1,100 feet above ground level.

 

[Songbird]

WASHINGTON (AP) — An air traffic controller was joking on the phone about barbecuing a dead cat minutes before a small plane collided with a tour helicopter over the Hudson River, transcripts obtained Wednesday by The Associated Press show.

Nine people died in the Aug. 8 accident.

The draft government transcripts show that shortly after the controller at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey cleared the single-engine Piper for takeoff, he made a phone call to the airport's operations office and remained on the phone until just before the plane collided with the helicopter five minutes later. The transcripts conform with a sequence of events laid out last week by the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the accident, although they differ slightly on the exact time events occurred.

AP obtained the transcripts from a source familiar with the investigation who wasn't authorized to release them and asked not to be identified.

The transcripts don't identify by name either the controller or the other person on the phone, but people familiar with the investigation said the call was to a woman. But officials for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which manages the airport, said last week that the phone call, made on a landline that controllers use to contact other parts of the airport, was to an employee of Baltimore-based AvPORTS, a contractor at Teterboro.

The transcripts show the controller was bantering with the woman about a dead cat that she apparently had to remove from airport property during a phone call that ended 12 minutes before the Piper's pilot told the tower he was ready for takeoff. Two minutes after the Piper took off, the controller called the woman back.

"We got plenty of gas in the grill?" the controller asked. "Fire up the cat."

"Ooh, disgusting, augh, that thing was disgusting," the woman responded.

They continued to banter about the cat while the controller directed traffic.

Seconds before the accident, the controller said, "Damn" — and ended the call.

 

[Armchair_QB]

WASHINGTON (AP) — An air traffic controller was joking on the phone about barbecuing a dead cat minutes before a small plane collided with a tour helicopter over the Hudson River, transcripts obtained Wednesday by The Associated Press show.

Nine people died in the Aug. 8 accident.

The draft government transcripts show that shortly after the controller at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey cleared the single-engine Piper for takeoff, he made a phone call to the airport's operations office and remained on the phone until just before the plane collided with the helicopter five minutes later. The transcripts conform with a sequence of events laid out last week by the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the accident, although they differ slightly on the exact time events occurred.

AP obtained the transcripts from a source familiar with the investigation who wasn't authorized to release them and asked not to be identified.

The transcripts don't identify by name either the controller or the other person on the phone, but people familiar with the investigation said the call was to a woman. But officials for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which manages the airport, said last week that the phone call, made on a landline that controllers use to contact other parts of the airport, was to an employee of Baltimore-based AvPORTS, a contractor at Teterboro.

The transcripts show the controller was bantering with the woman about a dead cat that she apparently had to remove from airport property during a phone call that ended 12 minutes before the Piper's pilot told the tower he was ready for takeoff. Two minutes after the Piper took off, the controller called the woman back.

"We got plenty of gas in the grill?" the controller asked. "Fire up the cat."

"Ooh, disgusting, augh, that thing was disgusting," the woman responded.

They continued to banter about the cat while the controller directed traffic.

Seconds before the accident, the controller said, "Damn" — and ended the call.

If the plane and helicopter were flying VFR, why does it matter what ground control was doing at the time of the crash?

 

[Boom_70]

WASHINGTON (AP) — An air traffic controller was joking on the phone about barbecuing a dead cat minutes before a small plane collided with a tour helicopter over the Hudson River, transcripts obtained Wednesday by The Associated Press show.

Nine people died in the Aug. 8 accident.

The draft government transcripts show that shortly after the controller at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey cleared the single-engine Piper for takeoff, he made a phone call to the airport's operations office and remained on the phone until just before the plane collided with the helicopter five minutes later. The transcripts conform with a sequence of events laid out last week by the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the accident, although they differ slightly on the exact time events occurred.

AP obtained the transcripts from a source familiar with the investigation who wasn't authorized to release them and asked not to be identified.

The transcripts don't identify by name either the controller or the other person on the phone, but people familiar with the investigation said the call was to a woman. But officials for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which manages the airport, said last week that the phone call, made on a landline that controllers use to contact other parts of the airport, was to an employee of Baltimore-based AvPORTS, a contractor at Teterboro.

The transcripts show the controller was bantering with the woman about a dead cat that she apparently had to remove from airport property during a phone call that ended 12 minutes before the Piper's pilot told the tower he was ready for takeoff. Two minutes after the Piper took off, the controller called the woman back.

"We got plenty of gas in the grill?" the controller asked. "Fire up the cat."

"Ooh, disgusting, augh, that thing was disgusting," the woman responded.

They continued to banter about the cat while the controller directed traffic.

Seconds before the accident, the controller said, "Damn" — and ended the call.

If the plane and helicopter were flying VFR, why does it matter what ground control was doing at the time of the crash?

Exactly - Hudson river for private aircraft is VFR - think of it like a highway- Jersey side planes fly south. NY side planes fly north. Completely visual.

Given how busy it is I am surprised there are not more tragic accidents like the one that happened.

 

[User 1019]

WASHINGTON (AP) — An air traffic controller was joking on the phone about barbecuing a dead cat minutes before a small plane collided with a tour helicopter over the Hudson River, transcripts obtained Wednesday by The Associated Press show.

Nine people died in the Aug. 8 accident.

The draft government transcripts show that shortly after the controller at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey cleared the single-engine Piper for takeoff, he made a phone call to the airport's operations office and remained on the phone until just before the plane collided with the helicopter five minutes later. The transcripts conform with a sequence of events laid out last week by the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the accident, although they differ slightly on the exact time events occurred.

AP obtained the transcripts from a source familiar with the investigation who wasn't authorized to release them and asked not to be identified.

The transcripts don't identify by name either the controller or the other person on the phone, but people familiar with the investigation said the call was to a woman. But officials for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which manages the airport, said last week that the phone call, made on a landline that controllers use to contact other parts of the airport, was to an employee of Baltimore-based AvPORTS, a contractor at Teterboro.

The transcripts show the controller was bantering with the woman about a dead cat that she apparently had to remove from airport property during a phone call that ended 12 minutes before the Piper's pilot told the tower he was ready for takeoff. Two minutes after the Piper took off, the controller called the woman back.

"We got plenty of gas in the grill?" the controller asked. "Fire up the cat."

"Ooh, disgusting, augh, that thing was disgusting," the woman responded.

They continued to banter about the cat while the controller directed traffic.

Seconds before the accident, the controller said, "Damn" — and ended the call.

If the plane and helicopter were flying VFR, why does it matter what ground control was doing at the time of the crash?

Exactly - Hudson river for private aircraft is VFR - think of it like a highway- Jersey side planes fly south. NY side planes fly north. Completely visual.

Given how busy it is I am surprised there are not more tragic accidents like the one that happened.

Neither of these were private, though. Both classified commercial by FAA definition.

Like I said above, I don't know what type of local flying rules they fall under, as far as ATC is concerned, but they were both well below the controlled airspace that started at 1,100 feet.

VFR situation. The fault lies with the pilots in command, as they were responsible for clearing their aircraft. Not the controller.

 

[Boom_70]

WASHINGTON (AP) — An air traffic controller was joking on the phone about barbecuing a dead cat minutes before a small plane collided with a tour helicopter over the Hudson River, transcripts obtained Wednesday by The Associated Press show.

Nine people died in the Aug. 8 accident.

The draft government transcripts show that shortly after the controller at Teterboro Airport in New Jersey cleared the single-engine Piper for takeoff, he made a phone call to the airport's operations office and remained on the phone until just before the plane collided with the helicopter five minutes later. The transcripts conform with a sequence of events laid out last week by the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating the accident, although they differ slightly on the exact time events occurred.

AP obtained the transcripts from a source familiar with the investigation who wasn't authorized to release them and asked not to be identified.

The transcripts don't identify by name either the controller or the other person on the phone, but people familiar with the investigation said the call was to a woman. But officials for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which manages the airport, said last week that the phone call, made on a landline that controllers use to contact other parts of the airport, was to an employee of Baltimore-based AvPORTS, a contractor at Teterboro.

The transcripts show the controller was bantering with the woman about a dead cat that she apparently had to remove from airport property during a phone call that ended 12 minutes before the Piper's pilot told the tower he was ready for takeoff. Two minutes after the Piper took off, the controller called the woman back.

"We got plenty of gas in the grill?" the controller asked. "Fire up the cat."

"Ooh, disgusting, augh, that thing was disgusting," the woman responded.

They continued to banter about the cat while the controller directed traffic.

Seconds before the accident, the controller said, "Damn" — and ended the call.

If the plane and helicopter were flying VFR, why does it matter what ground control was doing at the time of the crash?

Exactly - Hudson river for private aircraft is VFR - think of it like a highway- Jersey side planes fly south. NY side planes fly north. Completely visual.

Given how busy it is I am surprised there are not more tragic accidents like the one that happened.

Neither of these were private, though. Both classified commercial by FAA definition.

Like I said above, I don't know what type of local flying rules they fall under, as far as ATC is concerned, but they were both well below the controlled airspace that started at 1,100 feet.

VFR situation. The fault lies with the pilots in command, as they were responsible for clearing their aircraft. Not the controller.

Hey 3 B sorry to here about that copter crash in Colorado. Heard they were from FT Cambell.