Mark Buerhle > Jack Morris?

[Mizzougrad96]

Morris is frequently listed on a lot of all 1980s teams, but it's really misleading since most of the best pitchers from that era, the ones who are in the HOF (Ryan, Carlton, Seaver, Palmer, Sutton, Perry, Jenkins, Niekro, Blyleven... ) were retired by the end of the decade (I think Ryan may be the only exception in that group...) and had their best seasons or are more identified with the 1970s. Others, like Greg Maddux didn't come along until the end of the decade.

Morris may have the best numbers from 1980-89, but he was never the best pitcher in the game. He never won a Cy Young...

I remember a veteran baseball writer who I worked with at my first stop said, "If you even have to think if someone is a Hall of Famer, then they're not..." and while I usually agree with that, I think Morris may be an exception, because you hear the name and you, or at least, I would think, "Oh, absolutely, he's a Hall of Famer", and then you take a look at his numbers, and it's a much tougher sell.

I definitely think Morris is better than Buehrle. I see Buehrle as a good pitcher and a compiler, but not on the level of Morris.

 

[Bob Cook]

I'm not sure Buehrle has ever had an arm or shoulder injury, which seems implausible in this day and age.

As calling a pitcher a "compiler" -- I know that's often meant to be a bit of an insult, but the nice thing about compilers is you know they'll rarely miss a start.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

I'm not sure Buehrle has ever had an arm or shoulder injury, which seems implausible in this day and age.

As calling a pitcher a "compiler" -- I know that's often meant to be a bit of an insult, but the nice thing about compilers is you know they'll rarely miss a start.

It's not an insult on any level. He's had a very good career. How many times has he finished top 10 in CY Young voting? I know all-star games can be really misleading, but how many times was he considered one of the top 10 pitchers in his league?

 

[Dick Whitman]

Take away the word ace, and you still have Morris arguably (but no stretch to make the argument) having been the best pitcher of the 1980s.

No, you can't.

No I can't what?

You cannot make a serious argument that Jack Morris was the best pitcher in the 1980s.

 

[Dick Whitman]

The status of "ace" is subjective with Morris and Buehrle. Morris was generally considered an "ace" because he was the top starter, or deemed to be. Often Buehrle was a top starter for the White Sox, but was never an "ace" mainly because he didn't throw 95 mph fastballs.

Also, Buehrle never had eye-popping numbers. He never got 20 wins, he never won a Cy Young, and he most definitely never came close to leading the league in strikeouts. The term "ace" is usually reserved for someone overpowering. Buehrle was merely frustrating (to hitters if his curve was down, to his own teammates and fans if it stayed up.)

That is fair, although I think of it that way more because of Buehrle's junk than Morris' stuff.

Take away the word ace, and you still have Morris arguably (but no stretch to make the argument) having been the best pitcher of the 1980s. You can't make any kind of serious argument like that with regard to Mark Buehrle in the 2000s.

And again, Morris was up there in the MVP voting 5 times. Got Cy Young votes 7 times. Buehrle got Cy Young votes the year the White Sox made the series.

Compare each of them to their eras, and I don't see how anyone who watched baseball during these times could argue that Mark Buehrle to the 2000s was anything near Jack Morris to the 1980s. Regardless of what they think of Morris for the HOF.

I can't see how anyone who would visit both Twitter and Facebook would think that Facebook's stock price would be higher.

Then you should definitely start another stupid thread.

Oh, it's a stupid thread?

Buerhle has a better ERA than Morris, career-wise.

He's closing in on him innings-wise and, eventually, wins-wise.

He's 7-1 with a 2.11 ERA.

"Stupid thread," though.

We should talk about gold some more.

 

[Bob Cook]

I'm not sure Buehrle has ever had an arm or shoulder injury, which seems implausible in this day and age.

As calling a pitcher a "compiler" -- I know that's often meant to be a bit of an insult, but the nice thing about compilers is you know they'll rarely miss a start.

It's not an insult on any level. He's had a very good career. How many times has he finished top 10 in CY Young voting? I know all-star games can be really misleading, but how many times was he considered one of the top 10 pitchers in his league?

An insult to Hall of Fame chances, yes. But I think you and I are in agreement. Buehrle is a good pitcher who'll probably end up starting for 10 more years, given his consistency and rubber arm. But he'll never be a Hall of Famer.

 

[Dick Whitman]

For the record, I don't think Buehrle is a HOF.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Take away the word ace, and you still have Morris arguably (but no stretch to make the argument) having been the best pitcher of the 1980s.

No, you can't.

No I can't what?

You cannot make a serious argument that Jack Morris was the best pitcher in the 1980s.

If you look at nothing but overall stats from 1980 to 1989, you might be able to make the argument, but that would be incredibly misleading. There are probably 10+ pitchers from the 1980s who are in Cooperstown and Morris isn't one of them.

 

[The Big Ragu]

Take away the word ace, and you still have Morris arguably (but no stretch to make the argument) having been the best pitcher of the 1980s.

No, you can't.

No I can't what?

You cannot make a serious argument that Jack Morris was the best pitcher in the 1980s.

Way more of a serious argument than Mark Buehrle and the 2000s. Randy Johnson, Johan Santana, Pedro, Roy Halladay, Sabathia, Roy Oswalt, Tim Hudson, Curt Schilling, Andy Pettitte, Josh Beckett. Who else am I missing who was better a pitcher than Buehrle?

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Who was the best pitcher of the 1980s?

 

[Dick Whitman]

Take away the word ace, and you still have Morris arguably (but no stretch to make the argument) having been the best pitcher of the 1980s.

No, you can't.

No I can't what?

You cannot make a serious argument that Jack Morris was the best pitcher in the 1980s.

Way more of a serious argument than Mark Buehrle and the 2000s.

So?

 

[Dick Whitman]

Who was the best pitcher of the 1980s?

Dave Stieb probably.

Others:

Fernando?
Gooden?
Clemens?
Hershiser?
Nolan Ryan?
Blyleven?
Saberhagen?

 

[The Big Ragu]

Who was the best pitcher of the 1980s?

I'd say Clemens. Doc Gooden second. Morris third. Steib next.

 

[Songbird]

The status of "ace" is subjective with Morris and Buehrle. Morris was generally considered an "ace" because he was the top starter, or deemed to be. Often Buehrle was a top starter for the White Sox, but was never an "ace" mainly because he didn't throw 95 mph fastballs.

Also, Buehrle never had eye-popping numbers. He never got 20 wins, he never won a Cy Young, and he most definitely never came close to leading the league in strikeouts. The term "ace" is usually reserved for someone overpowering. Buehrle was merely frustrating (to hitters if his curve was down, to his own teammates and fans if it stayed up.)

Is a great line.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Who was the best pitcher of the 1980s?

I'd say Clemens. Doc Gooden second. Morris third. Steib next.

Make the argument that Morris was better in the '80s than Stieb.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Mike Scott would be way up there.

I don't know if anybody but Ryan had a great complete decade.

 

[Songbird]

Fernando is up there, too. Top 10, anyway. At least from '81 thru '87.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Who was the best pitcher of the 1980s?

Dave Stieb probably.

Others:

Fernando?
Gooden?
Clemens?
Hershiser?
Nolan Ryan?
Blyleven?
Saberhagen?

Yeah, I don't know... Four of those guys weren't in the league until at least 1984.

It could be Stieb.

I know Ryan had some great years that decade, but he seemed to do it very quietly. It almost seemed like he was off the radar from 1982 until 1986 or so. He wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team for a decent chunk of the decade.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Mike Scott would be way up there.

I don't know if anybody but Ryan had a great complete decade.

I watched him just dismantle my beloved Giants late one season. Holy **** that guy was good...

 

[The Big Ragu]

Who was the best pitcher of the 1980s?

I'd say Clemens. Doc Gooden second. Morris third. Steib next.

Make the argument that Morris was better in the '80s than Stieb.

I already did. I'll do it again if it means that much to you. I think Jack Morris was a better pitcher in the 80s than Dave Stieb was. Stieb was great. Morris distinguished himself as a big game pitcher.

Judging by the Hall of Fame voting each got, I'm not alone in my opinion.