Lia Thomas

[Brian J Walter]

Some will see her that way. Others will say her victory was unfair to the others competing. Honestly, I believe both are true.

Someone cries "unfair" after nearly all sporting events, regardless of the situation. Maybe it's even true a lot of the time. Life, as my mom told me until I was blue in the face, is not fair.

 

[Batman]

This is one of the types of responses that make it difficult to have a reasonable discussion of this topic. It isn't a culture war for everybody. It is about fairness. There actually is no way to be fair to everybody here, which is exactly why we should try to have intelligent discussions of the topic. We've got people on all sides, including yours, refusing to have that discussion.

You can't win!

 

[PCLoadLetter]

Thank you for contributing nothing to this particular discussion.

You know, I'm one of the few people on this site who will engage you in a thread without endlessly throwing rocks at you.

So keep that in mind as I let you know you're welcome to kiss my ass.

 

[DanielSimpsonDay]

You can't win!

 

[LanceyHoward]

I find this controversy to be something that reflects the cable news/tabloid idiocy of our time. Christine Jorgenson became the first known transgendered women when she started surgical procedures in 1952.

I am unaware of any impact transgendered athletes had on the world of sports until the mid 1970's when Renee Richards tried to play professional tennis. In Richards previous male life, she had been a college tennis player and was then a very good amateur player before undergoing a sex change. She won a lawsuit to try to qualify for the U.S. Open but she did not progress very far and retired.

As far as I know Richards and now Thomas are the only athletes who have trans gendered and enjoyed any competitive success at a national level since 1952. While I understand the issues of competitive equity and opportunity it seems to me that someone coming along every 35 years or so is not a reason to create an uproar.

However, and I have not seen this widely reported on the mainstream media, steps have already been taken to prevent future Lia Thomas's to win championships. The NCAA basically told USA Swimming they would follow their rules on how to determine if someone can swim in woman's events. Rules had already existed that prevented humans who had too high a testosterone level from swimming as a woman. USA Swimming changed the rule to say someone had to have tested below the maximum levels for a period of 36 months. If this rule had been applied to Thomas she would have been ineligible to compete at this time. But the NCAA decided to only apply the rule only going forward.

Thomas's times have declined now that she swims as a female. As her testosterone levels continues to decline her times probably will also.

This appears to me to be a reasonable compromise and a wise decision. I also think that USA swimming and the NCAA made a wise decision to couch this in medical terms and not get involved in the culture wars.

In my experience the NCAA making a wise decision happens with less frequency than a transgender athlete winning a championship but I believe in giving credit where credit is due.

 

[heyabbott]

Does Lia have an unfair advantage such that her competitors could not naturally duplicate Lia’s performances?

 

[outofplace]

You know, I'm one of the few people on this site who will engage you in a thread without endlessly throwing rocks at you.

So keep that in mind as I let you know you're welcome to kiss my ass.

Your information is laughably out of date. Regarding your invitation, I believe I shall pass.

 

[outofplace]

I find this controversy to be something that reflects the cable news/tabloid idiocy of our time. Christine Jorgenson became the first known transgendered women when she started surgical procedures in 1952.

I am unaware of any impact transgendered athletes had on the world of sports until the mid 1970's when Renee Richards tried to play professional tennis. In Richards previous male life, she had been a college tennis player and was then a very good amateur player before undergoing a sex change. She won a lawsuit to try to qualify for the U.S. Open but she did not progress very far and retired.

As far as I know Richards and now Thomas are the only athletes who have trans gendered and enjoyed any competitive success at a national level since 1952. While I understand the issues of competitive equity and opportunity it seems to me that someone coming along every 35 years or so is not a reason to create an uproar.

However, and I have not seen this widely reported on the mainstream media, steps have already been taken to prevent future Lia Thomas's to win championships. The NCAA basically told USA Swimming they would follow their rules on how to determine if someone can swim in woman's events. Rules had already existed that prevented humans who had too high a testosterone level from swimming as a woman. USA Swimming changed the rule to say someone had to have tested below the maximum levels for a period of 36 months. If this rule had been applied to Thomas she would have been ineligible to compete at this time. But the NCAA decided to only apply the rule only going forward.

Thomas's times have declined now that she swims as a female. As her testosterone levels continues to decline her times probably will also.

This appears to me to be a reasonable compromise and a wise decision. I also think that USA swimming and the NCAA made a wise decision to couch this in medical terms and not get involved in the culture wars.

In my experience the NCAA making a wise decision happens with less frequency than a transgender athlete winning a championship but I believe in giving credit where credit is due.

That it happens infrequently does not mean it should not be handled properly when it does happen. Also, I imagine we will see this more than once every 35 years going forward. Our society has changed and continues to change.

 

[Scout]

One competitor has a distinct advantage over others.

To argue that they don’t, is not for the sane.

Gender equity? I don’t know. Will we have enough gender neutral athletes to start their own championships?

There is no easy answer to this. But, this was not a fair competition.

 

[LanceyHoward]

That it happens infrequently does not mean it should not be handled properly when it does happen. Also, I imagine we will see this more than once every 35 years going forward. Our society has changed and continues to change.

The NCAA decided the lengthen the transition time from when a person transgendered. The medical thinking is that as testosterone levels decline athletic performance will decline and level the playing field.

The NCAA did decide that since Thomas qualified under the existing rules not to boot her out which to me seems reasonable.

What part of the decision do you feel was handled improperly?

 

[MisterCreosote]

One competitor has a distinct advantage over others.

There have been distinct competitive advantages since competition was invented.

 

[poindexter]

There have been distinct competitive advantages since competition was invented.

That's an absurd defense of the situation.
Lia has the physicality of a man. Lia is racing against women.

 

[MisterCreosote]

That's an absurd defense of the situation.
Lia has the physicality of a man. Lia is racing against women.

And all of the women Thomas is beating would destroy me (a man) in the same race, because of their inherent physical advantages over me.

 

[heyabbott]

And all of the women Thomas is beating would destroy me (a man) in the same race, because of their inherent physical advantages over me.

So open up the races to all humans without further distinction and the fastest wins.

 

[Baron Scicluna]

Concerns about fair competition are legitimate, and if there is a scientific way to make competitions fair for all, I'm all for it.

But let's not pretend that a lot of this is the Radical Right finding the newest Crisis of the Week to screech about because they got their asses kicked on gay marriage.

 

[justgladtobehere]

Concerns about fair competition are legitimate, and if there is a scientific way to make competitions fair for all, I'm all for it.

But let's not pretend that a lot of this is the Radical Right finding the newest Crisis of the Week to screech about because they got their asses kicked on gay marriage.

I don't think Martina Navatilova and Lia's teammates and their parents are part of the 'Radical Right.'

 

[outofplace]

Concerns about fair competition are legitimate, and if there is a scientific way to make competitions fair for all, I'm all for it.

But let's not pretend that a lot of this is the Radical Right finding the newest Crisis of the Week to screech about because they got their asses kicked on gay marriage.

The problem with that statement is it that it is thoroughly unfair to people who actually do care about fair competition. I don't think anybody is going to confuse me for a member of the Radical Right, but I do think the athletes competing against Thomas would have a legitimate complaint if they felt comfortable speaking out. As it is, that picture of them standing apart from Thomas is telling. Anybody who dares to question the fairness of Thomes competing in women's athletics is attacked for being a bigot. That's crap.

 

[jr/shotglass]

The problem with that statement is it that it is thoroughly unfair to people who actually do care about fair competition. I don't think anybody is going to confuse me for a member of the Radical Right, but I do think the athletes competing against Thomas would have a legitimate complaint if they felt comfortable speaking out. As it is, that picture of them standing apart from Thomas is telling. Anybody who dares to question the fairness of Thomes competing in women's athletics is attacked for being a bigot. That's crap.

There has been enough expressed outrage over the situation that it's a stretch to say that people are afraid to say anything. They're saying plenty. Just maybe not within earshot of Lia Thomas.

 

[ChrisLong]

I keep thinking back to the one-legged wrestler at Arizona State (google him). He was a fully developed 6-foot, 185-pound man, but he weighed only 125 (or something like that) because of his missing leg. He was wrestling against other 125-pounders, but with a massive torso and significant upper body strength that the smaller guys didn't have. There certainly were some leverage disadvantages for him, but strength vs. strength, he was way ahead. Similar, I think.

 

[Oggiedoggie]

This is an issue so nuanced it might not be appropriate to black-and-white* rules, even though such rules are an integral part of most competitions. I’m not sure exactly what shade of gray I think is best, not that it really matters what I think.

I’m a bit amused that some folks who couldn’t give a hoot about girl’s/women’s sports have suddenly found passion for protecting and preserving them. Perhaps the stands at events will be a bit more full in the future.

*Perhaps not the best term to use given the history of sports segregation along lines which no longer make much sense.