Kornheiser on Eli Manning

[MTM]

During Monday night's game, the ESPN crew was discussinng how it has to be difficult for Eli Manning to be in Peyton's shadow and try to live up to his accomplishments.
Tony K agreed, but added, if he wasn't Peyton's brother, he wouldn't have been the top pick and be making the kind of money he is.
Tirico and Jaws jumped all over Tony, saying he was way off base.
They went to a commercial and I don't know if they picked up the debate.
Kornheiser is right. Eli was inflated because he's Peyton's bro. Not saying he doesn't have talent, but if he had the same skill set and a different last night coming out of college, he wouldn't have had the hype and draft position.

 

[outofplace]

I agree with Kornheiser to a point, though I'm not sure how much that improved his draft status.

The Giants definitely should have stayed put and drafted Roethlisberger. But I'm glad they didn't.

 

[bigpern23]

Eli's not the only Manning whose reputation has been bolstered by Peyton. Ever since Peyton got into the league, I started hearing about how Archie Manning was a great quarterback in his day. I never heard that before Peyton arrived.

Archie is ranked 50th all time in completions. He's not in the top 50 in any other meaningful statistical category (TDs, comp. %, yards, wins). He never led the league in TDs, only finished in the top 10 three times in a 15-year career (and this was when there were 26 or 28 teams in the league, not 32) and only topped 2,000 yards passing in four of his 15 seasons.

This was a great QB?

 

[outofplace]

Eli's not the only Manning whose reputation has been bolstered by Peyton. Ever since Peyton got into the league, I started hearing about how Archie Manning was a great quarterback in his day. I never heard that before Peyton arrived.

Archie is ranked 50th all time in completions. He's not in the top 50 in any other meaningful statistical category (TDs, comp. %, yards, wins). He never led the league in TDs, only finished in the top 10 three times in a 15-year career (and this was when there were 26 or 28 teams in the league, not 32) and only topped 2,000 yards passing in four of his 15 seasons.

This was a great QB?

I've heard that before, accompanied by a lot of excuse-making about how horrible the teams he played for were. Archie Manning was definitely held back by playing for terrible teams his entire career, but his legend has defitely outgrown what he actually did on the field.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Archie is more legendary for his college career, but to be fair, he played on a lot of bad New Orleans teams...

I think TK is 100 percent right. If Eli wasn't Peyton's brother, no way does he go No. 1 in the draft.

 

[Ben_Hecht]

Ernie Accorsi had it set in his mind that Eli was God.

Only thing left to find out is whether it'll be viewed in the future as a modest mistake . . . or a huge one.

He sure ain't Unitas, Ernie . . . or Peyton . . .

. . . or Tony Romo, for that matter.

And anywhere below Tony Romo ain't #1 slot territory . . . sorry.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

The Chargers got Philip Rivers, Shawne Merriman and Nate Kaeding for Eli...

That's one of the best NFL trades of the past decade. Three Pro Bowlers for a vastly overrated quarterback? Not a bad deal...

 

[Oz]

The Chargers got Philip Rivers, Shawne Merriman and Nate Kaeding for Eli...

That's one of the best NFL trades of the past decade. Three Pro Bowlers for a vastly overrated quarterback? Not a bad deal...

And that allowed Roethlisberger to slip to the Steelers. I don't mind that one bit.

 

[Beaker]

All the pundits kept talking about the "good lineage" and how that was going to translate into NFL stardom...whoops...

 

[Captain_Kirk]

In Archie's defense, the Saints were really, really bad. Their record during his time there was 45 - 114 -3 . And he had 5 different head coaches in those 10 years.

Kind of hard to have all time numbers playing on a team like that.

 

[outofplace]

All the pundits kept talking about the "good lineage" and how that was going to translate into NFL stardom...whoops...

They also said that Rivers was the one most ready to step right in and play, followed closely by Manning and that Roethlisberger was going to need a lot more time to develop.

Then Charlie Batch tears up his knee in August while Roethlisberger has a strong pre-season to move up to No. 2. Tommy Maddox gets hurt in week two and suddenly Roethlisberger is a starter a month or two ahead of Manning and two years ahead of Rivers.

 

[I love puppies!]

While you guys are ripping Eli, the Giants just won their fourth straight game.

With a QB, a lot has to do with the system. Roethlisberger played with a great defense and great running game and won a Super Bowl (Trent Dilfer ring a bell?).

It might not be fair to blame him, but Rivers hasn't won a title with the Chargers and started out the year poorly.

Eli might be a bust, but give him at least a few more years.

 

[Oz]

With a QB, a lot has to do with the system. Roethlisberger played with a great defense and great running game and won a Super Bowl (Trent Dilfer ring a bell?).

Roethlisberger did more than manage games like Dilfer did in the playoffs, he got them there. Remember how the Steelers went up 14-0 at Indy right off the bat? That wasn't the defense (though it did make one stop) or the ground game -- that was the Steelers trusting Ben to make plays with his arm and his legs.

Ben got the Steelers quick, sizable leads at Indy and Denver, allowing the ground game and defense to do the rest.

 

[Johnny Dangerously]

Archie played 10 full seasons with the Saints. They didn't have a winning record in any of them. He was NFC Player of the Year in 1978 on a 7-9 team.

If you didn't see the Saints play in those years, there's no way you could grasp how good he was. Had he played for the equivalent of the Patriots of the past 10 years, he'd have won at least four or five Super Bowls. Bledsoe and Brady couldn't scramble like Archie, and he had a hell of an arm.

 

[I love puppies!]

With a QB, a lot has to do with the system. Roethlisberger played with a great defense and great running game and won a Super Bowl (Trent Dilfer ring a bell?).

Roethlisberger did more than manage games like Dilfer did in the playoffs, he got them there. Remember how the Steelers went up 14-0 at Indy right off the bat? That wasn't the defense (though it did make one stop) or the ground game -- that was the Steelers trusting Ben to make plays with his arm and his legs.

Ben got the Steelers quick, sizable leads at Indy and Denver, allowing the ground game and defense to do the rest.

I'm not saying he was crap. But put Manning with that D and that running game and how would he have done? Of course, we'll never know the answer. But the jury is still out in my opinion.

 

[Beaker]

With a QB, a lot has to do with the system. Roethlisberger played with a great defense and great running game and won a Super Bowl (Trent Dilfer ring a bell?).

Roethlisberger did more than manage games like Dilfer did in the playoffs, he got them there. Remember how the Steelers went up 14-0 at Indy right off the bat? That wasn't the defense (though it did make one stop) or the ground game -- that was the Steelers trusting Ben to make plays with his arm and his legs.

Ben got the Steelers quick, sizable leads at Indy and Denver, allowing the ground game and defense to do the rest.

I'm not saying he was crap. But put Manning with that D and that running game and how would he have done? Of course, we'll never know the answer. But the jury is still out in my opinion.

I think the jury's still out too, but I just think that Kornheiser had a point about Manning's draft position.

 

[bigpern23]

Archie played 10 full seasons with the Saints. They didn't have a winning record in any of them. He was NFC Player of the Year in 1978 on a 7-9 team.

If you didn't see the Saints play in those years, there's no way you could grasp how good he was. Had he played for the equivalent of the Patriots of the past 10 years, he'd have won at least four or five Super Bowls. Bledsoe and Brady couldn't scramble like Archie, and he had a hell of an arm.

To be fair, I've never seen him play. I am strictly looking at his numbers. However, I can't think of a single other quarterback who is called "great" with such lousy numbers and defended by saying he played for bad teams. I also never once heard him called great until Peyton started blowing up in the NFL.

I find it hard to call someone great with a record and numbers like Archie had, supporting cast be damned. Vinny Testaverde played with some ****ty-ass teams and he's still in the top 10 all time in completions, yards and touchdowns, yet he's never called a great quarterback (nor should he be -- longevity obviously helped him out).

But again, I will admit that I never saw Archie play.

 

[Johnny Dangerously]

I didn't even use the word "great," but Archie was a hell of a lot better than a lot of people think he was. I think "great" is overused, but I also think Archie doesn't get enough credit.

 

[Starman]

Archie was as good for about 8 years as Eli has been so far this season. Very good, not great. Of his contemporaries, he was never in the Staubach-Bradshaw level.

Peyton's worst season, so far, is better than any Archie ever had. But Archie, indeed, was playing for a god-awful team.

 

[The Big Ragu]

You can't compare Archie Manning to Terry Bradshaw. Bradshaw would have looked horrible if he had played for the Saints.

No offensive QB numbers from the 70s compare with the numbers QBs put up now. But even if they did, looking at numbers just doesn't tell the story about how good Archie Manning was and how consistently awful those offensive lines were. There might as well have been five pieces of tissue paper blocking for him. The demon child of Dan Marino and Peyton Manning wouldn't have fared half as well as Archie did, because at least Archie could run for his life. Even with that, the guy still got the snot knocked out of him for 10 years.