Immigration issue question

[Smallpotatoes]

Every so often when I'm watching Lou Dobbs or listening to the radio, the topic turns to immigration, which I'm told, is the most important issue in this country today.
Frequently I hear people talking about how illegal aliens receive benefits citizens don't receive or that they don't have to abide by the same laws and rules that everyone else does.
How true are these stories and how much are they exaggerated for the sake of getting people pissed off about the issue?

 

[tonysoprano]

Be careful what you listen to.

 

[HejiraHenry]

Be careful what you listen to.

Especially if ... they're speaking Spanish?

 

[tonysoprano]

I would say there's a good deal of exaggeration, and some facts. Do your research, and you'll be fine.

 

[DyePack]

There's quite a bit of immigrant labor in my area. Generally there are few problems, but every now and then credentials have to be checked, etc.

Most people don't realize I (usually) can understand (some) Spanish, so they speak freely, thinking I don't know what they are saying. I gather from the conversations there's periodic unhappiness with la policia.

 

[Bill Horton]

Heard a joke from someone last night about the problem with sending all the immigrants back to Mexico and then building a wall across the border. The problem? Who would be left to build the wall?

 

[leo1]

a lot of it is hype and exageration of things that are technically true. i think what they mean is that most illegal immigrants don't pay taxes or get any money withheld from their paychecks (because they're getting paid in cash under-the-table) like the rest of us, but they still get the same benefits such as free or low cost health care (the same that any uninsured legal american gets) and free public school education for their kids. so without paying into the system they are putting a huge strain on the system.

 

[DocTalk]

a lot of it is hype and exageration of things that are technically true. i think what they mean is that most illegal immigrants don't pay taxes or get any money withheld from their paychecks (because they're getting paid in cash under-the-table) like the rest of us, but they still get the same benefits such as free or low cost health care (the same that any uninsured legal american gets) and free public school education for their kids. so without paying into the system they are putting a huge strain on the system.

However, the people really making money are those hiring illegals. They can pay lower wages and do not have to pay social security or workers comp premiums. They do not necessarily have to keep a safe workplace or deal with OSHA standards. There would not be a market for illegal aliens, if there were no employers. To be fair many illegals use fraudulent SSNs to obtain employment and it should not be the employers responsibility to assess immigration status, but just as an employer may do a criminal background check on a potential employee and just as an employer can choose to bond his employees, that employer could certainly do a check on the social security number as well.

A story from the 2003: PanAm Games in the Dominican Republic. The country shares an island with Haiti, one of the porest countries in the world. The Haitians would stream into the DR for any kind of work and employers, including the government, thought of them as less than human. Worksites would be strewn with glass shards, nails and broken wire and the Haitian workers weren't given shoes to wear; they would be hoisted on cranes toinstall lighting with no safety equipment; they would work in closes spaces without respirators and in exchange for 12-14 hours of work a day, they would get a hot emal and $3. When the beach volleyball courts were deemed too rocky, instead of bringing in a couple truckloads of sand, they had a dozen Haitians sifting the courts by hand...it was just cheaper.

 

[leo1]

a lot of it is hype and exageration of things that are technically true. i think what they mean is that most illegal immigrants don't pay taxes or get any money withheld from their paychecks (because they're getting paid in cash under-the-table) like the rest of us, but they still get the same benefits such as free or low cost health care (the same that any uninsured legal american gets) and free public school education for their kids. so without paying into the system they are putting a huge strain on the system.

However, the people really making money are those hiring illegals. They can pay lower wages and do not have to pay social security or workers comp premiums. They do not necessarily have to keep a safe workplace or deal with OSHA standards. There would not be a market for illegal aliens, if there were no employers. To be fair many illegals use fraudulent SSNs to obtain employment and it should not be the employers responsibility to assess immigration status, but just as an employer may do a criminal background check on a potential employee and just as an employer can choose to bond his employees, that employer could certainly do a check on the social security number as well.

A story from the 2003: PanAm Games in the Dominican Republic. The country shares an island with Haiti, one of the porest countries in the world. The Haitians would stream into the DR for any kind of work and employers, including the government, thought of them as less than human. Worksites would be strewn with glass shards, nails and broken wire and the Haitian workers weren't given shoes to wear; they would be hoisted on cranes toinstall lighting with no safety equipment; they would work in closes spaces without respirators and in exchange for 12-14 hours of work a day, they would get a hot emal and $3. When the beach volleyball courts were deemed too rocky, instead of bringing in a couple truckloads of sand, they had a dozen Haitians sifting the courts by hand...it was just cheaper.

doc, i have no idea how your story is relevant to the debate in this country but i agree with everything you said in your first graf. my post was just to explain the argument to small potatoes. illegal immigration is one of the issues where i see both sides having a good argument for being right and i honestly don't know what should happen.

 

[DocTalk]

We treat undocumented and illegal workers as commodities. They are faceless and therefore dehumanized. They have utility because employers can minimize their expenses by their use. "Truck load of sand or lots of people who don't exist sifting sand" is the same as "Roofing companies paying market wages and benefits or using invisible illegals"

 

[Ace]

Every so often while you are watching Lou Dobbs the immigration issue comes up? Whodathunkit?

 

[Stupid]

I think an underlying concern is that unchecked immigration tests our concept of democracy. In theory, there are those who don't want their tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to be free coming into America and shifting the balance of power via a voting constituency. Even if every immigrant were to come in legally and pay taxes and work for the GDP of America, the problem, as I'm suggesting some see it, is that those immigrants are all coming from the same place — Central America.

So what happens in 20-30 years when Latinos become the majority and their voting power causes significant shifts in the political and social landscape of the US? I think that this is the real fear that many people have when it comes to immigration. If that is the case, then I think you have to either accept that as part of a democratic system or go about changing the laws of this nation to make it no longer a democracy but a country that favors those who have been in power from the beginning.

As far as I'm concerned, keep America free and if our grandkids have to learn Spanish someday, so be it. Of course, if the immigrants were coming from Canada, I'd be all for repelling them with force. ;D

 

[Double J]

Why, because we'd be smart and resourceful enough to take you over in less time? (just kidding)

 

[Double J]

Hey, we've got Jason Voorhees on our side and everybody knows he's unstoppable.

 

[Gold]

A lot of immigrants do have jobs where Social Security taxes are taken out, so a lot of them pay taxes for benefits they won't receive.

As far as them taking services such as education and hospital, you could say the same things about anybody who is poor. In fact, people DID say the same things about blacks in the 60s and 70s and even later.

the current rants against immigrants are no different that when my grandfather came over from Italy in the early part of the 20th Century. And save the "but they were legal immigrants" stuff, because in 1924 they changed immigration rules to prevent people like him, Jews, and other people from southern and eastern Europe from coming over.

 

[Stupid]

As far as them taking services such as education and hospital, you could say the same things about anybody who is poor.  In fact, people DID say the same things about blacks in the 60s and 70s and even later.

They're still saying that which is, as you say, another big reason people are against immigration in any form. Never mind that many of the immigrants work harder than many Americans (myself included) who have grown up in relative comfort.

 

[Double Espresso]

Wow, an actual realistic discussion on immigration.

Congratulations to all here on being quite possibly the first Americans to conduct one.

Amazing, not even one fraudulent lament about the "illegals" breaking "our laws."

When, of course, they're not really our laws.

At least not to our businesses, who:

1. run our country
2. essentially have invited all 12 million "illegals"
3. bear 100 percent responsibility for this "crisis"
3 1/2. if indeed it's a crisis.

Thank you. I have refurbished hope.