'Enough with Jetes already!'

[Guy_Incognito]

Which makes what Pedro did all the more impressive.

He didn't have to face the juice brothers - Manny & Ortiz

 

[Michael_ Gee]

He didn't have to face the juice brothers - Manny & Ortiz

The Sox didn't have Manny in '99.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Nor Ortiz. (Who wasn't DAVID ORTIZ yet in any case.)

 

[Guy_Incognito]

The Sox didn't have Manny in '99.

Fair enough. I'd have voted Pedro anyway. I just like reminding people that Ortiz was on the list since everyone else prefers to ignore it.

 

[JC]

He didn't have to face the juice brothers - Manny & Ortiz

The Sox didn't have Manny and the whole league was juiced, including your beloved Yankees. Although, there's a good chance Pedro was as well.

 

[outofplace]

Really?



Derek Jeter never won an MVP award. It’s really kind of a crazy thing because Jeter has been so celebrated, so absurdly canonized (It was the over-the-top Jeter love that, almost a decade ago, motivated me to coin the word “Jeterate.”). And yet, the guy was jobbed out of THREE MVP awards by my count.

In 1998, he lost to the MVP vote to Juan Gonzalez and I have to say that I still don’t understand it. Back then — and this continues somewhat now — voters chose players not only based on their own success but also based on how good their team was. Well, Derek Jeter was the best player on a Yankees team that won 114 games.

Not only that: Gonzalez had already won a dubious MVP award two years earlier — the voters have always spread things around.

Not only that: Jeter was a WAY MORE VALUABLE PLAYER than Gonzalez, whose entire case was home runs and RBIs. Jeter got on base more, was a much better base runner, was a dramatically better fielder at a more important position and so on and so on. That should not have been close. And it wasn’t close. Gonzalez won the award going away. Heck Jeter finished third in the voting, behind Nomar Garciaparra.

The very next year, Jeter has the highest WAR among everyday players in the American League. He was crazy good — .349/.438/.552 splits with a league leading 219 hits, 134 runs scored, 102 RBIs, it was a ridiculously awesome season for a team that, yet again, ran away with the division. Jeter finished SIXTH in the MVP voting. Now, really, that MVP should have gone to Pedro Martinez. But it did not. It went to Pudge Rodriguez. There is no way Pudge — great as he was defensively and with 35 homers added on — was as valuable as Jeter in 1999.

And then, the most famous snub, 2006, he lost the MVP to Justin Morneau. Again: Kind of inexplicable. Jeter had 40 points of on-base percentage on Morneau, scored 20 more runs, was way better on the bases and, though he had a rough year defensively, he was still a shortstop to Morneau’s first base.

Three times Jeter was demonstrably better than the guy who won the MVP award. Could it be that the guy who was basically given the number 2 by the world at last last week was actually UNDERRATED in his career?

I can't see the link. Please note that you resorted to talking about career accomplishments in your argument. That you think he was snubbed more than once is irrelevant to judging the specific seasons. That Gonzalez had previously won the award was also irrelevant.

The only one of these I ever looked at closely was 2006, because I've had the argument with Yankees fanboys before. Jeter had a better team around him. You also cherry-picked which statistics you chose for each argument. Yes, Jeter had the higher on-base percentage, but Morneau's slugging percentage was 76 points higher. That gave him a significant advantage in OPS (.934 to .900). Of course, Jeter did more on the basepaths, but Morneau provided more power. Also, Jeter had the better team around him and there is a very good argument to be made that Jeter wasn't even the best Yankee that year if you take a good look at the production of Alex Rodriguez.

I'm not saying you can't make an argument for Jeter, but it isn't nearly the injustice that some make it out to be.

 

[cisforkoke]

Gonzalez had more RBI. This tipped the RAW scale in his favor.

 

[Guy_Incognito]

I can't see the link. Please note that you resorted to talking about career accomplishments in your argument. That you think he was snubbed more than once is irrelevant to judging the specific seasons. That Gonzalez had previously won the award was also irrelevant.

The only one of these I ever looked at closely was 2006, because I've had the argument with Yankees fanboys before. Jeter had a better team around him. You also cherry-picked which statistics you chose for each argument. Yes, Jeter had the higher on-base percentage, but Morneau's slugging percentage was 76 points higher. That gave him a significant advantage in OPS (.934 to .900). Of course, Jeter did more on the basepaths, but Morneau provided more power. Also, Jeter had the better team around him and there is a very good argument to be made that Jeter wasn't even the best Yankee that year if you take a good look at the production of Alex Rodriguez.

I'm not saying you can't make an argument for Jeter, but it isn't nearly the injustice that some make it out to be.

It's Posnanski's column. Was Jeter a slam dink? no. But I think he was the best candidate, and I know that Morneau wasn't.

 

[outofplace]

It's Posnanski's column. Was Jeter a slam dink? no. But I think he was the best candidate, and I know that Morneau wasn't.

No, you think Morneau wasn't. It isn't a fact and it isn't even that strong of an opinion. Jeter played the tougher position, but Morneau was better at his position. (That one is subjective, of course). Morneau was the better hitter (That isn't subjective at all. The numbers, especially OPS and OPS-plus, back it up). Jeter had the better team around him, but both were on teams that won their divisions. In fact, the oddity to me was how low Alex Rodriguez was in the MVP voting that season.

 

[Armchair_QB]

I believe the point is broader than the Yankees. This makes sense for the Yankees. The point is baseball continuing at large to cling to a Yankee who retired three years ago as the face of the game. Baseball has long oversold Derek Jeter because he fit into a certain box: Long-time, homegrown New York Yankee with multiple World Series titles.

It's amazing to think back on how many crossover stars the game had in the early to mid-90s. Griffey. Bonds. Clemens. Canseco and McGwire. Thomas. It was an absolute bonanza. (I largely credit the baseball card/memorabilia bubble, which you can't really replicate now.)

Baseball at large isn't clinging to Jeter. ESPN is.

 

[cjericho]

I know plenty of Yankees fans who still whine about 2006. I can't say I've ever heard one of them make the argument without resorting to comparing Jeter's entire career to Morneau's.

Though I think there are some tiny kernels of truth in it, the fake dedication was ridiculous without being funny. Jeter does get credit for more than he did, but to suggest he was anything less than a great player and easy Hall of Famer is silly.

Just last week or maybe two weeks ago, someone posted (forget which thread) that he wasn't sure Jeter was the best player on any of those Yankees teams. I asked who was better on the 98 team.