Charlie Wilson's War

[novelist_wannabe]

Went and saw it yesterday while the rest of the country was at Wal-Mart and found it fascinating. Lotta stuff I didn't remember about the Russo-Afghani war. I dunno if it's Oscar-caliber, but it was well worth the six bucks I paid to see it. Phillip Seymour Hoffman was, as always, particularly good.

 

[hockeybeat]

Went and saw it yesterday while the rest of the country was at Wal-Mart and found it fascinating. Lotta stuff I didn't remember about the Russo-Afghani war. I dunno if it's Oscar-caliber, but it was well worth the six bucks I paid to see it. Phillip Seymour Hoffman was, as always, particularly good.

Thanks for the head's up. I have been jonesing to see it.

 

[terrier]

I'd love to hear about the research for this film, since Wilson apparently carried on with Diane Sawyer (AKA Mrs. Mike Nichols) at one point.

 

[The Big Ragu]

NOTE: SOME OF WHAT I JUST TYPED MIGHT BE CONSTRUED AS SPOILERS, EVEN THOUGH I AM READING THE BOOK RIGHT NOW AND HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

I haven't seen the move. I am about a third a way through the book right now. It is not great writing and it is a bit disjointed at times. But the writer, George Crile, managed to do a ton of research, talk to a lot of people and untangle a lot of info about what was going on at the CIA during that time. It reads like fiction. It was a weird set of circumstances that really brought together some unlikely characters (some of whom were buffoons or very sophisticated -- more likely a combination of both, depending on who he talked to). I'll report back when I finish the book, but so far it is fascinating. It covers s0 much ground and gives food for thought regarding a number of policy decisions dating back to Carter and before. I find it hard to believe that a Congressman could totally ignore his legislative mandate, and single-handedly set up his own one-man State Department/CIA operation, in which he was determining U.S. Foreign policy in so many arenas on his own. Add in the fact that he was a a total putz in his personal life (a womanizer, loud brash, prone toward trouble, a bit corrupt, embroiled in a drug usage scandal, etc.) it is really kind of scary to think what an even more misguided Congressman (at least Wilson seemed to have a feel--so far in the book--for the ramifications of what he was doing) could have done during that time when oversight was much more loose than I believe it is today. But damn, this story so far is reading as ubelievable. The parts about the CIA--and the insider/outsider culture in Clandestine Services, and the role that Gust Avrokados played, are fascinating too. I wish the writer had a bit more skill. He was working with prime A material and could have organized it better. But it's really a minor gripe. It's a fantastic book so far.

 

[shotglass]

Went tonight, and the movie kept me enthralled for 90-plus minutes.

 

[2muchcoffeeman]

As I mentioned on the movies thread, I thought this was an excellent movie.

Ragu, here's another book covering much the same territory:

http://worldcat.org/oclc/52814066&referer=one_hit

Won the Pulitzer for general non-fiction in 2005 (the second Pulitzer for author Steve Coll), but doesn't have the flawed Congressman who beat the Russkies as the central hook.

 

[sportschick]

Is Charlie Wilson the guy that Molly Ivins once wrote about going overseas with some beauty queen (Miss World, IIRC)?

 

[gandhithegreat]

NOTE: SOME OF WHAT I JUST TYPED MIGHT BE CONSTRUED AS SPOILERS, EVEN THOUGH I AM READING THE BOOK RIGHT NOW AND HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

I haven't seen the move. I am about a third a way through the book right now. It is not great writing and it is a bit disjointed at times. But the writer, George Crile, managed to do a ton of research, talk to a lot of people and untangle a lot of info about what was going on at the CIA during that time. It reads like fiction. It was a weird set of circumstances that really brought together some unlikely characters (some of whom were buffoons or very sophisticated -- more likely a combination of both, depending on who he talked to). I'll report back when I finish the book, but so far it is fascinating. It covers s0 much ground and gives food for thought regarding a number of policy decisions dating back to Carter and before. I find it hard to believe that a Congressman could totally ignore his legislative mandate, and single-handedly set up his own one-man State Department/CIA operation, in which he was determining U.S. Foreign policy in so many arenas on his own. Add in the fact that he was a a total putz in his personal life (a womanizer, loud brash, prone toward trouble, a bit corrupt, embroiled in a drug usage scandal, etc.) it is really kind of scary to think what an even more misguided Congressman (at least Wilson seemed to have a feel--so far in the book--for the ramifications of what he was doing) could have done during that time when oversight was much more loose than I believe it is today. But damn, this story so far is reading as ubelievable. The parts about the CIA--and the insider/outsider culture in Clandestine Services, and the role that Gust Avrokados played, are fascinating too. I wish the writer had a bit more skill. He was working with prime A material and could have organized it better. But it's really a minor gripe. It's a fantastic book so far.

Ragu...

You're right on the mark. It doesn't read all that well, but the research he did was phenom, something that will be missing when we look to read books 20 years from now about Iraq, Sept. 11th etc. The movie was impressive considering the amount of information they had. The only thing left out, that in the end really had little to do with what happened but I thought it was incredibly lucky or unlucky was the fact that the night before the Junket to Paris/Afghanistan with Doc Long was that Wilson got pissed drunk and slammed into another car on a bridge and DC...forget which one. He convinced Virginia State Police that they had no jurisdiction and DC police allowed him to go on the trip...wonder what would have happened had he missed it.

After that one...try The Shock Doctrine...another well researched book.

Good reading.

 

[mike311gd]

I'm going to try and see the movie tomorrow. I don't go often, so I hope this is a good one.

 

[Brooklyn Bridge]

Was on A and E or History channel last week. Told the same story, only it didn't star Tom Hanks and you didn't have to shell out ten bucks to see it. But otherwise, a facinating story.

 

[Moderator1]

Taking my family tonight.

 

[novelist_wannabe]

I find it hard to believe that a Congressman could totally ignore his legislative mandate,

The movie covered this, though it's tough to discern how much, if any, creative license was taken. Charlie basically says he's the only member of congress who doesn't have a legislative mandate.

and single-handedly set up his own one-man State Department/CIA operation, in which he was determining U.S. Foreign policy in so many arenas on his own.

Not really much to refute this; that's the premise of the movie. The impression I got, though, was of a man who found ways to cut through red tape and do what he felt was the right thing. In the current political environment, I wonder if that possibility even exists.

 

[Fenian_Bastard]

I find it hard to believe that a Congressman could totally ignore his legislative mandate,

The movie covered this, though it's tough to discern how much, if any, creative license was taken. Charlie basically says he's the only member of congress who doesn't have a legislative mandate.

and single-handedly set up his own one-man State Department/CIA operation, in which he was determining U.S. Foreign policy in so many arenas on his own.

Not really much to refute this; that's the premise of the movie. The impression I got, though, was of a man who found ways to cut through red tape and do what he felt was the right thing. In the current political environment, I wonder if that possibility even exists.

As to the last point, most of the really scary stuff done by this administration has been done for what the people doing it would describe as those very reasons.

 

[The Big Ragu]

I find it hard to believe that a Congressman could totally ignore his legislative mandate,

The movie covered this, though it's tough to discern how much, if any, creative license was taken. Charlie basically says he's the only member of congress who doesn't have a legislative mandate.

and single-handedly set up his own one-man State Department/CIA operation, in which he was determining U.S. Foreign policy in so many arenas on his own.

Not really much to refute this; that's the premise of the movie. The impression I got, though, was of a man who found ways to cut through red tape and do what he felt was the right thing. In the current political environment, I wonder if that possibility even exists.

As to the last point, most of the really scary stuff done by this administration has been done for what the people doing it would describe as those very reasons.

Not sure if you are having the same conversation... But the administration is part of the executive branch. Not EVERYTHING has to be about Bush bashing on here. Can't some threads stay unpoluted? My original point was that Charlie Wilson is a Congressman. Yet, he never introduced any legislation. Instead, he took it upon himself to set up a one-man state department/CIA operation. It's an interesting story. One that if replicated by someone else could turn the U.S. into a dictatorship at the extreme. There is a reason why what he did is a violation of U.S. Statute that keeps lone wolves from negotiating U.S. Foreign policy on their own and usurping power they have no claim to.

He negotiated directly with foreign countries, including trying to squire arms deals between Pakistan and Israel, or having defense contractors design weapons systems for the muhjadin in Afghanistan without authorization from anywhere but his own head (numerous other examples of his dealings with foreign countries). These things don't fall under the job description of "Congressman from small town in Texas," but he was a master at manipulating the system, and sitting on the appropriations committee with a bunch of idiots who didn't have their eye on the ball, he could pretty much pass through whatever money for whatever causes he wanted with very few questions asked. It took a simple 3-minute phone call for him to double the amount of money the CIA was filtering into Afghanistan, when his plan began. That is ridiculous.

Whatever you think of Bush, he is the president of the United States. The executive branch (president, VP, Secretary of State, CIA at their direction) determine U.S. Foreign policy. You might disagree with Bush's foreign policy and I know you will argue that he is a criminal in the way he has done things, but the fact remains that stewarding our foreign policy is the role he was elected to play. That is not the role that a single Congressman was elected to play.

 

[Boom_70]

Looking forward to seeing the movie but sure that it can't do the book justice. Way to much ground to cover that a movie could only do in a cursory manner.

My overall takeaway - The U.S was a lot more involved in Afganistan that most were aware off in the 80's.

It's too bad that George Crile passed away. It would be interesting to hear about his research for the book.

 

[JayFarrar]

The History Channel documentary was excellent.
I got the impression that Wilson was able to do what he wanted because of his committee memberships and that of all the people in Congress the one most likely to wage his own private war in Afghanistan was not the coke snorting, hooker dating congressman from east Texas. But Wilson basically took down the Soviet Union because his commie-hating girlfriend asked him to.

 

[novelist_wannabe]

And then she went and got married to someone else.

 

[JayFarrar]

No kidding.
"Hey honey, I risked thermonuclear war and the end of life on Earth today"
"You never listen to me. I'm leaving."
Did the movie have the American belly dancer bumping and grinding with a sword on the lap of the Egyptian defense minister?
My only hope is that the movie is as half as interesting as the real-life story.
I trust Sorkin though. He'll make it work.

 

[Cansportschick]

Saw it over the weekend and Philip Seymour Hoffman steals the show in this film. He should win the Oscar this year for supporting actor for this film.

This movie is one of the best of 2007 and I highly recommend this flick along with I am Legend.

 

[lantaur]

No kidding.
"Hey honey, I risked thermonuclear war and the end of life on Earth today"
"You never listen to me. I'm leaving."
Did the movie have the American belly dancer bumping and grinding with a sword on the lap of the Egyptian defense minister?
My only hope is that the movie is as half as interesting as the real-life story.
I trust Sorkin though. He'll make it work.

The movie did have an American belly dancer on the lap of the defense minister (don't recall the sword part of it). And the interesting thing here is the girl who played that part in the movie is Wade Phillips' daughter.

Anyway, I also thought the movie was good, not great, and agree Phillip Seymour Hoffman was outstanding.