Car Shopping

[HeinekenMan]

I found what I'd posted. I'll flesh it out a little bit.

First of all, if you have a relationship with a credit union, apply for a loan there before you go in. It'll probably be the best deal, and it will give you some bargaining power when they try to give you a loan (more on that later).

Also, check sites like Edmunds.com which will tell you how much cars like the one you want are selling for.

When you go to the dealer, allow yourself all day. Don't go in at 10 if you have to be at work by 2. You will make a mistake.

The best way to buy a car is to negotiate the price of the new car first (NOT by payments, by the bottom-line price of the car). THEN, deal with the trade-in. When the salesman asks how much can you afford a month, be evasive. Don't give him a monthly payment--you're hosed then. He'll then ask you if you're willing to buy the car today for the list price plus whatever markups they've got on it. One-word answer: "No." Let him stew, then he'll ask something like "What will it take to get you to buy this car today?" Sinply say what number you're willing to pay for the car (it should be somewhat less than the number you got from Edmunds).

Don't elaborate. Use as few words as possible. Don't bring up how you need the car for work, or you don't need two cars if you buy this, or anything else. If your wife's with you, she needs to remain quiet (this would also go for Rosie's husband). ANYTHING YOU SAY CAN BE USED AGAINST YOU. If you need to discuss something, go outside--some dealers have their sales areas wired.

He'll have you initial your offer (DON'T WORRY--NOTHING'S FINAL UNTIL YOU SIGN THE SALES CONTRACT) and take the sheet to his boss. He'll be back a few minutes later with another offer. Spend a lot of time studying the offer, like you're looking for the holy grail. This will get the guy nervous. Then, reject the offer. He'll then ask for a counter offer. Come up some, and the steps will repeat.

If you don't see a number you can agree on, walk out. Just get up and start heading for the door. 90% chance you'll be followed and you'll get a better offer. Always remember that there are lots of cars out there, and the salesman's invested time in you and his boss will be pissed if he doesn't make a sale.

Finally, you'll get to a number you can agree on. At that point, you go to the finance room. When you get there, start checking things carefully. Make sure they're not putting on some add-on (lame alarm, rust-proofing, etc.) you don't need. You can almost always get it aftermarket for less if you really need it. And most extended warranties are a ripoff.

Another thing to watch for is bogus "delivery charges" added on the contract. Those are dealer charges, they're not mandated by the state. They'll tell you everyone pays them, and maybe everyone does, but you can use that to get something else from them. Keep in mind, the negotiations are still going on.You can still walk at any time. If they won't budge on the delivery charge, get them to throw in (free) an extended warranty or something. One time, at the very end, I made them give me a ball cap from the parts department, or I was going to walk. I still have that cap.

When they start running numbers (they'll have you fill out a credit check), they'll give you a payment. At that point, ask what the percentage is. Now (AND NOT BEFORE) tell them you've arranged a loan through your bank or credit union at a lower rate. Do this even if you haven't arranged the loan. They will usually meet or beat the rate they gave you before.

Any questions? PM me. GOOD LUCK

That's awesome. You're my hero. I won't leave without a cap on my head. You explain it so well. My wife has access to a credit union through her job, but we've never opened an account. Would you suggest opening one and then immediately asking for a loan? Or would it be easier to ask for a loan through our bank?

 

[JR]

IMO, there are two basic car-buying decisions:

1. Japanese.

2. Mistakes.

100% correct.

Just bought a 2007 Toyota Camry 6 weeks ago. Love it. We have an '05 Highlander, love it. If you can spend it and want a very good AWD vehicle, wait until the '08 Highlanders come out, they are going to be great. We've owned 4 Toyotas, 3 Nissans, 1 Isuzu, 1 Mercedes (a handme down) and a Dodge MiniVan. Every one of them lasted well over 100K with no major problems except the Dodge, which blew a head gasket at 62K and a transmission at 66K.

My Camry has 280,000 kms on it (approx 170,00 miles) and still going strong.

I read a stat (or maybe it was a Toyota ad) that something like 90% of all Toyota's built since 1988 are still on the road.

 

[Ace]

I found what I'd posted. I'll flesh it out a little bit.

First of all, if you have a relationship with a credit union, apply for a loan there before you go in. It'll probably be the best deal, and it will give you some bargaining power when they try to give you a loan (more on that later).

Also, check sites like Edmunds.com which will tell you how much cars like the one you want are selling for.

When you go to the dealer, allow yourself all day. Don't go in at 10 if you have to be at work by 2. You will make a mistake.

The best way to buy a car is to negotiate the price of the new car first (NOT by payments, by the bottom-line price of the car). THEN, deal with the trade-in. When the salesman asks how much can you afford a month, be evasive. Don't give him a monthly payment--you're hosed then. He'll then ask you if you're willing to buy the car today for the list price plus whatever markups they've got on it. One-word answer: "No." Let him stew, then he'll ask something like "What will it take to get you to buy this car today?" Sinply say what number you're willing to pay for the car (it should be somewhat less than the number you got from Edmunds).

Don't elaborate. Use as few words as possible. Don't bring up how you need the car for work, or you don't need two cars if you buy this, or anything else. If your wife's with you, she needs to remain quiet (this would also go for Rosie's husband). ANYTHING YOU SAY CAN BE USED AGAINST YOU. If you need to discuss something, go outside--some dealers have their sales areas wired.

He'll have you initial your offer (DON'T WORRY--NOTHING'S FINAL UNTIL YOU SIGN THE SALES CONTRACT) and take the sheet to his boss. He'll be back a few minutes later with another offer. Spend a lot of time studying the offer, like you're looking for the holy grail. This will get the guy nervous. Then, reject the offer. He'll then ask for a counter offer. Come up some, and the steps will repeat.

If you don't see a number you can agree on, walk out. Just get up and start heading for the door. 90% chance you'll be followed and you'll get a better offer. Always remember that there are lots of cars out there, and the salesman's invested time in you and his boss will be pissed if he doesn't make a sale.

Finally, you'll get to a number you can agree on. At that point, you go to the finance room. When you get there, start checking things carefully. Make sure they're not putting on some add-on (lame alarm, rust-proofing, etc.) you don't need. You can almost always get it aftermarket for less if you really need it. And most extended warranties are a ripoff.

Another thing to watch for is bogus "delivery charges" added on the contract. Those are dealer charges, they're not mandated by the state. They'll tell you everyone pays them, and maybe everyone does, but you can use that to get something else from them. Keep in mind, the negotiations are still going on.You can still walk at any time. If they won't budge on the delivery charge, get them to throw in (free) an extended warranty or something. One time, at the very end, I made them give me a ball cap from the parts department, or I was going to walk. I still have that cap.

When they start running numbers (they'll have you fill out a credit check), they'll give you a payment. At that point, ask what the percentage is. Now (AND NOT BEFORE) tell them you've arranged a loan through your bank or credit union at a lower rate. Do this even if you haven't arranged the loan. They will usually meet or beat the rate they gave you before.

Any questions? PM me. GOOD LUCK

That's awesome. You're my hero. I won't leave without a cap on my head. You explain it so well. My wife has access to a credit union through her job, but we've never opened an account. Would you suggest opening one and then immediately asking for a loan? Or would it be easier to ask for a loan through our bank?

Heinie, just have your wife ask what the rate is for a new car loan.

If they say it's 7 percent and the dealer offers 8, say "I can get a loan at my credit union for 7 percent."

 

[Ace]

IMO, there are two basic car-buying decisions:

1. Japanese.

2. Mistakes.

100% correct.

Just bought a 2007 Toyota Camry 6 weeks ago. Love it. We have an '05 Highlander, love it. If you can spend it and want a very good AWD vehicle, wait until the '08 Highlanders come out, they are going to be great. We've owned 4 Toyotas, 3 Nissans, 1 Isuzu, 1 Mercedes (a handme down) and a Dodge MiniVan. Every one of them lasted well over 100K with no major problems except the Dodge, which blew a head gasket at 62K and a transmission at 66K.

My Camry has 280,000 kms on it (approx 170,00 miles) and still going strong.

I read a stat (or maybe it was a Toyota ad) that something like 90% of all Toyota's built since 1988 are still on the road.

Toyotas and Hondas are great cars. I just think the perception that American cars are junk is not accurate. At least any more.

 

[leo1]

One other thing. If you can wait until the end of the model year and eat the natural depreciation (knowing you have just bought a brand new car), clearance sales are a gas. No pun intended. Yes, the car is a year old, but it is still brand new.

and i recently learned that "new" is a relative term. if the manager drove it for a few weeks, suddenly it's "used" (ok, actually "pre-owned") which means it's cheaper. so the moral is not to reject all pre-owneds.

 

[BTExpress]

If possible, a loan from your 401(k) might be a good idea.

The only interest you pay is to yourself.

Not possible for everyone, of course, but something to consider.

I just think the perception that American cars are junk is not accurate. At least any more.

Not junk --- and certainly more reliable than just about any Mercedes or Jag (the most overpriced and unreliable pieces of metal on the planet) --- but simply not as reliable as Japanese.

My Japanese car is at 197,500 miles and still going great.

 

[Bob Cook]

IMO, there are two basic car-buying decisions:

1. Japanese.

2. Mistakes.

100% correct.

Just bought a 2007 Toyota Camry 6 weeks ago. Love it. We have an '05 Highlander, love it. If you can spend it and want a very good AWD vehicle, wait until the '08 Highlanders come out, they are going to be great. We've owned 4 Toyotas, 3 Nissans, 1 Isuzu, 1 Mercedes (a handme down) and a Dodge MiniVan. Every one of them lasted well over 100K with no major problems except the Dodge, which blew a head gasket at 62K and a transmission at 66K.

My Camry has 280,000 kms on it (approx 170,00 miles) and still going strong.

I read a stat (or maybe it was a Toyota ad) that something like 90% of all Toyota's built since 1988 are still on the road.

Toyotas and Hondas are great cars. I just think the perception that American cars are junk is not accurate. At least any more.

My Ford van sure is. I can see why the Lions suck, given the performance of that van. But that was my fault -- we bought it quickly at CarMax as a low-priced, last-minute buy when my wife was pregnant with our fourth child, and fitting everybody into a Toyota Corolla was no longer an option.

Still, I have bought twice at CarMax, and would never go anywhere else. The Toyota was a great car, but I felt personally violated by the time I was done with the dealer, who (and this was before kids) told my wife and I all the problems he and his wife had conceiving -- and for emphasis, had the picture of him and his wife facing our side of his desk. The Ford is crap, but the experience was much better at CarMax. We also bought a Mercury Villager at CarMax that has lasted quite well.

Plus, if you have two small kids messing up your car, it might not be worth spending big bucks to buy new. At least that's been our attitude. (To be fair, I probably mess up the car a lot more than my kids.)

 

[heyabbott]

Check Edmunds for the manufacturers price. The minimum mark up is 10% on the car and 20% on the options and packages. Edmunds will all tell you what rebates exist. Sometimes the manufacturer kicks back hundreds of dollars to the dealership on each car sold, this should fit into your equation.
On the last purchase, the salesmanager gave us a price 1,000 dollars less than the sticker, thinking we would be impressed. When I looked disinterested and unimpressed, he asked what would it take to make the deal. I told him 1,500 less than his last price. After some back and forth, they came down another 1,300. I'm sure they still made money.

If you want actually intend to buy a car they will not let you leave. I have gotten up and walked out of dealerships a few times, but they have always followed me out and came down on the offer.

Dealerships don't make their real money on the sale of cars, but on the service and repairs.

 

[HeinekenMan]

Well, I believe I have narrowed the actual car choices to the Subaru Outback, Isuzu something or another and the Suzuki something or other. All are relatively close together on price, but one company is offering a deep discount. The strange part is that all three local dealerships are basically on the same lot. That bugs me because I was going to haggle with three different people before making my choice between the three cars.

 

[Inky_Wretch]

One other thing. If you can wait until the end of the model year and eat the natural depreciation (knowing you have just bought a brand new car), clearance sales are a gas. No pun intended. Yes, the car is a year old, but it is still brand new.

and i recently learned that "new" is a relative term. if the manager drove it for a few weeks, suddenly it's "used" (ok, actually "pre-owned") which means it's cheaper. so the moral is not to reject all pre-owneds.

Actually, that'd be a program car. Not pre-owned. For it to be used or pre-owned, the title has to change hands.

For example, my Jeep Wrangler had 221 miles on it when I took it for a test drive. To me, that's a brand new vehicle. But the title had changed hands three times (factory to dealership #1 - which went out of business - to auto auction to dealership #2).

Because the title had changed hands, it was a "used" vehicle. It saved me $5,000.

 

[Ace]

Check Edmunds for the manufacturers price. The minimum mark up is 10% on the car and 20% on the options and packages. Edmunds will all tell you what rebates exist. Sometimes the manufacturer kicks back hundreds of dollars to the dealership on each car sold, this should fit into your equation.
On the last purchase, the salesmanager gave us a price 1,000 dollars less than the sticker, thinking we would be impressed. When I looked disinterested and unimpressed, he asked what would it take to make the deal. I told him 1,500 less than his last price. After some back and forth, they came down another 1,300. I'm sure they still made money.

If you want actually intend to buy a car they will not let you leave. I have gotten up and walked out of dealerships a few times, but they have always followed me out and came down on the offer.

Dealerships don't make their real money on the sale of cars, but on the service and repairs.

Once I knew what type of car I wanted (for new cars) I got a report from Consumer Reports that lists to the penny what the car costs and what rebates and such there are.

You have to pay for it, though.

 

[heyabbott]

Well, I believe I have narrowed the actual car choices to the Subaru Outback, Isuzu something or another and the Suzuki something or other. All are relatively close together on price, but one company is offering a deep discount. The strange part is that all three local dealerships are basically on the same lot. That bugs me because I was going to haggle with three different people before making my choice between the three cars.

Don't buy the Isuzu, it is a GMC. I had a Trooper that lasted 175,000 and still was going when I got rid of it. That was built in Japan. But the Isuzus today are just rebadged GMC SUVs. Suzuki has lousy reliability.

Go to the library and check out some Consumer Reports on cars. I don't agree with their subjective opiniions about cars like ride and handling, but they do their research about reliability and repairs of prior years models.

If you are looking at an Outback type car, check the Honda CRV and the Toyota RAV4, they look great but designed even better.
I like the Suburu, their Tribeca is very cool.

 

[heyabbott]

Check Edmunds for the manufacturers price. The minimum mark up is 10% on the car and 20% on the options and packages. Edmunds will all tell you what rebates exist. Sometimes the manufacturer kicks back hundreds of dollars to the dealership on each car sold, this should fit into your equation.
On the last purchase, the salesmanager gave us a price 1,000 dollars less than the sticker, thinking we would be impressed. When I looked disinterested and unimpressed, he asked what would it take to make the deal. I told him 1,500 less than his last price. After some back and forth, they came down another 1,300. I'm sure they still made money.

If you want actually intend to buy a car they will not let you leave. I have gotten up and walked out of dealerships a few times, but they have always followed me out and came down on the offer.

Dealerships don't make their real money on the sale of cars, but on the service and repairs.

Once I knew what type of car I wanted (for new cars) I got a report from Consumer Reports that lists to the penny what the car costs and what rebates and such there are.

You have to pay for it, though.

Edmunds has the same info and it is free.

 

[Ace]

Check Edmunds for the manufacturers price. The minimum mark up is 10% on the car and 20% on the options and packages. Edmunds will all tell you what rebates exist. Sometimes the manufacturer kicks back hundreds of dollars to the dealership on each car sold, this should fit into your equation.
On the last purchase, the salesmanager gave us a price 1,000 dollars less than the sticker, thinking we would be impressed. When I looked disinterested and unimpressed, he asked what would it take to make the deal. I told him 1,500 less than his last price. After some back and forth, they came down another 1,300. I'm sure they still made money.

If you want actually intend to buy a car they will not let you leave. I have gotten up and walked out of dealerships a few times, but they have always followed me out and came down on the offer.

Dealerships don't make their real money on the sale of cars, but on the service and repairs.

Once I knew what type of car I wanted (for new cars) I got a report from Consumer Reports that lists to the penny what the car costs and what rebates and such there are.

You have to pay for it, though.

Edmunds has the same info and it is free.

It has been a while since I bought a car (jinxed myself).

 

[OTD]

Well, I believe I have narrowed the actual car choices to the Subaru Outback, Isuzu something or another and the Suzuki something or other. All are relatively close together on price, but one company is offering a deep discount. The strange part is that all three local dealerships are basically on the same lot. That bugs me because I was going to haggle with three different people before making my choice between the three cars.

Don't buy the Isuzu, it is a GMC. I had a Trooper that lasted 175,000 and still was going when I got rid of it. That was built in Japan. But the Isuzus today are just rebadged GMC SUVs. Suzuki has lousy reliability.

Go to the library and check out some Consumer Reports on cars. I don't agree with their subjective opiniions about cars like ride and handling, but they do their research about reliability and repairs of prior years models.

If you are looking at an Outback type car, check the Honda CRV and the Toyota RAV4, they look great but designed even better.
I like the Suburu, their Tribeca is very cool.

Sad to say, HeyAbbott is correct about the Isuzu. I love them, but the ones sold in this country are rebadged TrailBlazers. I'm on my third real Isuzu, and love it.

I'd check the Outback, the Rav4 and the CR-V. If you need something bigger, look at the Highlander or Xterra.

 

[Dyno]

The April issue of Consumer Reports is their annual car issue. It should be available on newsstands now. Lots of good info in there.

 

[Sam Mills 51]

Also, check sites like Edmunds.com which will tell you how much cars like the one you want are selling for.

The best way to buy a car is to negotiate the price of the new car first (NOT by payments, by the bottom-line price of the car). THEN, deal with the trade-in. When the salesman asks how much can you afford a month, be evasive. Don't give him a monthly payment--you're hosed then. He'll then ask you if you're willing to buy the car today for the list price plus whatever markups they've got on it. One-word answer: "No." Let him stew, then he'll ask something like "What will it take to get you to buy this car today?" Sinply say what number you're willing to pay for the car (it should be somewhat less than the number you got from Edmunds).

If you don't see a number you can agree on, walk out. Just get up and start heading for the door. 90% chance you'll be followed and you'll get a better offer. Always remember that there are lots of cars out there, and the salesman's invested time in you and his boss will be pissed if he doesn't make a sale.

Finally, you'll get to a number you can agree on. At that point, you go to the finance room. When you get there, start checking things carefully. Make sure they're not putting on some add-on (lame alarm, rust-proofing, etc.) you don't need. You can almost always get it aftermarket for less if you really need it. And most extended warranties are a ripoff.

Any questions? PM me. GOOD LUCK

Ah, Edmunds. 'Bout time someone mentioned them. Great, great car types and honest enough to put in their reviews if a car in a similar automotive class is better, or if they're the same and one's clearly a better buy.

Here's an excellent piece of dealership don'ts: http://www.edmunds.com/advice/youngdrivers/articles/119534/article.html

The two best steps

1) Never agree to a monthly payment. The moment the dealership has that, you're sunk. Sure, they can get you in a vehicle at that cost. But the payments can be stretched over 84 months. I worked in the same building with two people who got stretched to 84 months over a Geo Metro. I wish I were kidding ...

2) Don't be fooled by numbers. Sales types are prone to try to divide a large sheet into numbers: Total car cost, monthly payment, financing percentages and trade in among others. Too many buyers get confused, fed up or pissed off and agree to "whatever." Don't let a dealer do that to you. As said before, break it down into steps. They don't like it. Tough. The key is that you keep the numbers organized, something dealerships don't like because the shady ones can't find hidden money to suck from your wallet.

The third point I saved from OTD's post because I experienced something similar the last time I bought a car. The supervisor was drug out after I walked away from a bad deal the idiots were trying to push on my stepfather and me. He BSed us for 20 minutes ... then we walked. Bought the car I'm still driving. No regrets.

Good luck.

 

[Ace]

Walking is nothing. I've had managers kick me out of car dealerships before.

Good times.

Some places/salesmen will work with you and would rather make $50 on a car than nothing.

Others want nothing to do with you if they can't get every last dollar from your bank account.

 

[jgmacg]

And don't forget, if you don't like sitting in that little sweatbox with a desperate salesperson, you can buy cars online now as well. Or through your local warehouse store, like BJ's or Costco or Sam's Club.

 

[Ace]

And don't forget, if you don't like sitting in that little sweatbox with a desperate salesperson, you can buy cars online now as well. Or through your local warehouse store, like BJ's or Costco or Sam's Club.

Problem with buying a car through Sam's Club, is you have to buy a really big car or two compact cars.

Prices are good, though.