Andy Pettitte

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

With the Yankees having signed 3 type A free agents (Teixeira, Sabathia and Burnett) - correct me if I'm wrong - they cannot sign another type A free agent because they are at the limit set by the CBA.

That means that Andy Pettitte and his agent may have the Yankees over a barrel. They can't sign another pitcher and without Pettitte the Yankees are no better off pitching wise than they were last year (the incoming combo of Sabathia and Burnett is marginally better then the combo of Mussina and Pettitte).

They can sign one type B because they are losing Pudge Rodriguez - so that means Jon Garland, Brad Penny or Randy Wolf as possible options other than Pettitte.

Am I wrong in my reading of the situation?

 

[bigpern23]

The Yankees can replace as many Type A free agents as they lose, PLUS the additional one, two or three Type A free agents allowed (a number based on how many Type A's are available).

Therefore, the Yankees can re-sign any of their own Type A free agents, no matter who else they've already signed.

I'm not sure how many Type A free agents are allowed to be signed this year, but the Yanks also lost Abreu (a Type A) and Pudge (a Type B).

 

[outofplace]

Sabathia and Burnett are only marginally better than Mussina and Pettitte? Not sure I agree there, but I guess that depends on how you define "marginally."

Getting Wang back after he started only 15 games in '08 should also make an impact.

 

[hockeybeat]

The Yankees can replace as many Type A free agents as they lose, PLUS the additional one, two or three Type A free agents allowed (a number based on how many Type A's are available).

Therefore, the Yankees can re-sign any of their own Type A free agents, no matter who else they've already signed.

I'm not sure how many Type A free agents are allowed to be signed this year, but the Yanks also lost Abreu (a Type A) and Pudge (a Type B).

Yanks signed Kevin Cash yesterday.

 

[bigpern23]

The Yankees can replace as many Type A free agents as they lose, PLUS the additional one, two or three Type A free agents allowed (a number based on how many Type A's are available).

Therefore, the Yankees can re-sign any of their own Type A free agents, no matter who else they've already signed.

I'm not sure how many Type A free agents are allowed to be signed this year, but the Yanks also lost Abreu (a Type A) and Pudge (a Type B).

Yanks signed Kevin Cash yesterday.

Well that just ****s everything up.

 

[Angola!]

Sabathia and Burnett are only marginally better than Mussina and Pettitte? Not sure I agree there, but I guess that depends on how you define "marginally."

I guess compared to last year, but I think most of us would take Sabathia and Burnett going forward.

 

[BYH]

...has never taken steroids in my kitchen.

 

[Guy_Incognito]

Sabathia and Burnett are only marginally better than Mussina and Pettitte? Not sure I agree there, but I guess that depends on how you define "marginally."

I guess compared to last year, but I think most of us would take Sabathia and Burnett going forward.

Compared to last year, it was certainly not marginal.

 

[Della9250]

Outside of Torre and the Dodgers, where else can Pettitte go and get prtety good money?

I don't think he has the Yanks hostage -- they can very easily go with a rotation of Wang, Sabathia, Burnett, Joba and let Hughes, Kennedy and Aceves fight it out for the fifth spot.

 

[outofplace]

Outside of Torre and the Dodgers, where else can Pettitte go and get prtety good money?

I don't think he has the Yanks hostage -- they can very easily go with a rotation of Wang, Sabathia, Burnett, Joba and let Hughes, Kennedy and Aceves fight it out for the fifth spot.

True, and Pettitte isn't worth more than $10 million for a season at this point. I don't think this is even about possibly taking more money to go elsewhere. This is about Pettitte being upset because the Yankees are spending like crazy to bring in these free agents, but they are holding firm with him.

 

[spnited]

Outside of Torre and the Dodgers, where else can Pettitte go and get prtety good money?

I don't think he has the Yanks hostage -- they can very easily go with a rotation of Wang, Sabathia, Burnett, Joba and let Hughes, Kennedy and Aceves fight it out for the fifth spot.

True, and Pettitte isn't worth more than $10 million for a season at this point. I don't think this is even about possibly taking more money to go elsewhere. This is about Pettitte being upset because the Yankees are spending like crazy to bring in these free agents, but they are holding firm with him.

Why should Pettitte be upset?

He's 36 coming off 14-14, 4.54...including 2-7, 6.23 in his last 11 starts

CC is 28 coming off 17-10, 2.70
Burnett is 31 coming off 18-10, 4.07


Pettitte should be happy anyone wants to pay him $10 mill

 

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

Using 2008 numbers:

Sabathia 17-10 / 35 GS / 253 IP / 76 ER / 2.70 ERA
Burnett 18-10 / 35 GS / 221 IP / 100 ER / 4.07 ERA
Combined 35-20 / 70 GS / 474 IP / 3.34 ERA / 6.77 IP/GS

Mussina 20-9 / 34 GS / 200 IP / 75 ER / 3.37 ERA
Pettitte 14-14 / 33 GS / 204 IP / 103 ER / 4.54 ERA
Combined 34-23 / 67 GS / 404 IP / 3.97 ERA / 6 IP/GS

The incoming tandem had 1 more win and 3 fewer losses (and yes I know how subjective wins and losses are). Even if you added 4 additional wins to the Yankees in 2008 - they still would have finished in 3rd place.

Probably most significant among the above stats is the fact that the new combo pitched about 1 more inning per start than the old combo. The Yankees bullpen was a weak spot for the team last year (and probably next as well) so going deeper into a start is a big plus. The caveat that has to be noted is that both CC Sabathia and AJ Burnett had their career bests in innings pitched last year. Asking them to match those numbers may be asking too much. It is very likely that the extra inning per start will evaporate and the production levels will be along the lines of what Mussina and Pettitte contributed.

An independent measurement of a player's contributions is Bill James' Win Share Method (where 4 win shares = one team win). Here's how the 4 players did in 2008:

Sabathia 25 WS
Mussina 18 WS
Burnett 14 WS
Pettitte 11 WS

Based upon those numbers the incoming duo had 10 more win shares which translates to 2.5 more wins.

Marginally better.

 

[bigpern23]

You note that it may be too much to ask for Sabathia and Burnett to match their inning totals of a year ago, yet you make no mention of how difficult it would be for Mussina to match his performance of a year ago.

Mussina won no more than 15 games in the four seasons preceding last year's 20-win campaign and he had a 4.36 ERA in that span. It seems a safe bet that he would have come back to that type of level, thus making the additions of Sabathia and Burnett more significant.

 

[hockeybeat]

Not that Sabathia is not a stud starter, but I wonder how much of his 2008 success was due to spending half a season in the National League.

 

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

You note that it may be too much to ask for Sabathia and Burnett to match their inning totals of a year ago, yet you make no mention of how difficult it would be for Mussina to match his performance of a year ago.

Mussina won no more than 15 games in the four seasons preceding last year's 20-win campaign and he had a 4.36 ERA in that span. It seems a safe bet that he would have come back to that type of level, thus making the additions of Sabathia and Burnett more significant.

EXACTLY. Sabathia would have to match Mussina's career best of 20 wins to even match what is being lost by the Yankees. Sabathia is Mussina with a gut and Teixeira is Giambi with a glove as far as the signings are concerned. The Yankees never won a World Series with Giambi and Mussina in their primes but tell me again why the Yankees should be looking to print playoff tickets?

Can someone answer my original question?

Thanks

 

[bigpern23]

I answered your original question in the second post.

 

[bigpern23]

Though, upon rereading it, I wasn't quite clear. Pettite doesn't have the Yanks over a barrel because they also lost Bobby Abreu, who was a Type A free agent. They can replace him, no matter who else they've signed already.

 

[outofplace]

Not that Sabathia is not a stud starter, but I wonder how much of his 2008 success was due to spending half a season in the National League.

It definitely helped, but the guy did win the Cy Young Award pitching the entire 2007 season in the American League.

 

[Evil Bastard (aka Chris_L)]

The Yankees can replace as many Type A free agents as they lose, PLUS the additional one, two or three Type A free agents allowed (a number based on how many Type A's are available).

Therefore, the Yankees can re-sign any of their own Type A free agents, no matter who else they've already signed.

I'm not sure how many Type A free agents are allowed to be signed this year, but the Yanks also lost Abreu (a Type A) and Pudge (a Type B).

The number of type A free agents a club can sign this year is at max 3. However, a team can sign as many type A free agents as they lose. The Yankees will "lose" Abreu and maybe Pettite as type A free agents. Damaso Marte was also a type A but he was re-signed so he was not "lost". Mussina retired so was he really "lost"? Even if he counts because the re-signing of Marte - the Yankees have only lost 3 type A free agents which they have already used up with Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeira.

That leaves I-Rod as a type B. Are there any type B's out there would could help the Yankees pass the Red Sox or the developing Rays? Personally - I don't think so.

The Yankees are a house of cards. Baseball cards. Whose future is to inhabit 3rd place.

You did not answer my question.

 

[outofplace]

You note that it may be too much to ask for Sabathia and Burnett to match their inning totals of a year ago, yet you make no mention of how difficult it would be for Mussina to match his performance of a year ago.

Mussina won no more than 15 games in the four seasons preceding last year's 20-win campaign and he had a 4.36 ERA in that span. It seems a safe bet that he would have come back to that type of level, thus making the additions of Sabathia and Burnett more significant.

EXACTLY. Sabathia would have to match Mussina's career best of 20 wins to even match what is being lost by the Yankees. Sabathia is Mussina with a gut and Teixeira is Giambi with a glove as far as the signings are concerned. The Yankees never won a World Series with Giambi and Mussina in their primes but tell me again why the Yankees should be looking to print playoff tickets?

Can someone answer my original question?

Thanks

Sabathia is much more than Mussina with a gut. You are completely ignoring the difference in the combined ERA of the new arrivals (3.34) and what Mussina and Pettitte did last year (3.97). Part of that was Sabathia pitching a big chunk of the season in the NL, but that isn't all of it.

Also, looking at only one season rather than the career trend is a mistake and particularly unfair in evaluating Sabathia.

Your characterization of Teixeira is off, too. First of all, you mention the glove, but seem to dismiss its importance. Teixeira is a huge upgrade defensively for the Yankees.

More importantly, he is a much better hitter than what Giambi was last year. Giambi was in a better lineup in a ballpark that is built for left-handed power hitters and Teixeira had to adjust to switching leagues in mid-season. Teixeira was more productive across the board. Part of that was getting over 100 more at-bats, but durability is another part of what Teixeira brings. A batting average 62 points higher ain't bad, either.

This is more than a marginal upgrade.