AL Cy Young?

[JC]

In 10 of his starts -- 5 in August, 5 in June -- these are his numbers:

67.1 innings
69 hits allowed
34 runs (30 earned)
17 walks, 70 strikeouts
4.05 ERA in June, 3.97 ERA in August -- or 4.02 ERA combined.

So, Greinke has 16 really good starts and 10 relatively so-so starts (with some crappy starts).

I know the team he plays for has ****ty offense, but I don't like that ratio of 16/10.

We can play the "what-if" game all we want, as in "what if the Royals weren't as crappy as the Padres?"

Yeah, Greinke might have 2-3 more wins if the Royals weren't the Triple-A team of the American League. But that's neither here nor there, though some here will argue that it certain is part of the equation.

But I see that 16/10 ratio and just don't see "Cy Young."

He has a fantastic K/BB ratio, so he's a terrific control pitcher. And Oz mentioned the 3 complete games and 2 shutouts, even though 2 shutouts isn't all that impressive. I mean, it's decent considering today's starters are generally 6-inning guys. But if he were head and shoulders "Cy Young" over everyone else, he'd have 5 or 6 shutouts in spite of the Royals' offense.


I just don't think it's Greinke's to lose.

That is why the season is 6 months, and Grienke has had the best overall season.

 

[Diabeetus]

1. Greinke
2. Verlander
3. Hernandez
4. Halladay
5. Rivera

 

[spnited]

Greinke has given up 4 runs or more in 6 of his 26 starts...0-5, 1 ND.

He has given up 3 runs or less in 20 of 26 starts ... 12-3, 5 ND.

 

[outofplace]

In 10 of his starts -- 5 in August, 5 in June -- these are his numbers:

67.1 innings
69 hits allowed
34 runs (30 earned)
17 walks, 70 strikeouts
4.05 ERA in June, 3.97 ERA in August -- or 4.02 ERA combined.

So, Greinke has 16 really good starts and 10 relatively so-so starts (with some crappy starts).

I know the team he plays for has ****ty offense, but I don't like that ratio of 16/10.

We can play the "what-if" game all we want, as in "what if the Royals weren't as crappy as the Padres?"

Yeah, Greinke might have 2-3 more wins if the Royals weren't the Triple-A team of the American League. But that's neither here nor there, though some here will argue that it certain is part of the equation.

But I see that 16/10 ratio and just don't see "Cy Young."

He has a fantastic K/BB ratio, so he's a terrific control pitcher. And Oz mentioned the 3 complete games and 2 shutouts, even though 2 shutouts isn't all that impressive. I mean, it's decent considering today's starters are generally 6-inning guys. But if he were head and shoulders "Cy Young" over everyone else, he'd have 5 or 6 shutouts in spite of the Royals' offense.


I just don't think it's Greinke's to lose.

That is why the season is 6 months, and Grienke has had the best overall season.

And it isn't just the lack of run support that has hurt Greinke. The defense behind him stinks. I wonder if at least part of his problem since the fast start is what injuries have done to the Royals' outfield, which was pretty good defensively with Crisp in center, DeJesus in left and Guillen in right.

 

[Songbird]

Against the hoi polloi of the AL -- Boston, New York, Chicago, L.A., Texas, Tampa Bay -- Halladay is 7-5 with 2 no-decisions.

Against them he's thrown 101 innings and allowed 37 earned runs (3.29 ERA)

Vs.

Boston ...........14 IP, 5 ER, 1-1 record
NYY ...............25 IP, 10 ER, 1-1 record (1 ND)
CWW .............14 IP, 4 ER, 2-0 record
LAA ...............17 IP, 9 ER, 1-1 record
Texas .............8 IP, 5 ER, 0-1 record
Tampa Bay.......23 IP, 4 ER, 1-1 record (1 ND)

Minnesota has become hot lately, but Halladay faced them back on April 16 (7 IP, 1 ER, win).

He has a 13-7 record, even though he's been shelled 2 straight games, and has a really impressive 159/24 K/BB ratio.

That's a pretty solid all-around season, more than comparable to Greinke, and he has 6 complete games and 1 shutout.

 

[JC]

Against the hoi polloi of the AL -- Boston, New York, Chicago, L.A., Texas, Tampa Bay -- Halladay is 6-5 with 2 no-decisions.

Against them he's thrown 101 innings and allowed 37 earned runs (3.29 ERA)

Vs.

Boston ...........14 IP, 5 ER, 1-1 record
NYY ...............25 IP, 10 ER, 1-1 record (1 ND)
CWW .............14 IP, 4 ER, 2-0 record
LAA ...............17 IP, 9 ER, 1-1 record
Texas .............8 IP, 5 ER, 0-1 record
Tampa Bay.......23 IP, 4 ER, 1-1 record (1 ND)

Minnesota has become hot lately, but Halladay faced them back on April 16 (7 IP, 1 ER, win).

He has a 13-7 record, even though he's been shelled 2 straight games, and has a really impressive 159/24 K/BB ratio.

That's a pretty solid all-around season, more than comparable to Greinke, and he has 6 complete games and 1 shutout.

good year, Greinke's is better.

 

[Oz]

Against the hoi polloi of the AL -- Boston, New York, Chicago, L.A., Texas, Tampa Bay -- Halladay is 7-5 with 2 no-decisions.

Against them he's thrown 101 innings and allowed 37 earned runs (3.29 ERA)

Boston ...........14 IP, 5 ER, 1-1 record
NYY ...............25 IP, 10 ER, 1-1 record (1 ND)
CWW .............14 IP, 4 ER, 2-0 record
LAA ...............17 IP, 9 ER, 1-1 record
Texas .............8 IP, 5 ER, 0-1 record
Tampa Bay.......23 IP, 4 ER, 1-1 record (1 ND)

Greinke against ...

Boston ...........No games yet (probably September)
NYY ...............No games yet (probably September)
CWW .............35 IP, 9 ER, 2-2 record (1 ND)
LAA ...............8 IP, 1 ER, 0-1 record
Texas .............16 IP, 1 ER, 1-1 record
Tampa Bay.......12 IP, 7 ER, 0-1 record (1 ND where he gave up 1 run in 7 innings)

Against them he's thrown 71 innings and allowed 18 earned runs. Greinke's pitched roughly 70 percent of the innings but given up half the runs Halladay did. And let's keep in mind Greinke can't face the worst offense in the game, the Royals, as Joe Posnanski noted in today's blog. How some Cy Young candidates fared against the Royals ...

Roy Halladay: 1-0, 0.00 ERA
Josh Beckett: 1-0, 0.00 ERA
C.C. Sabathia: 1-0, 0.00 ERA
Scott Feldman: 1-0, 0.00 ERA
Jon Lester: 1-0, 0.00 ERA
Justin Verlander: 2-0, 2.08 ERA — 19 Ks in 13 innings
King Felix: Has not faced Royals yet .. might in coming week

 

[Songbird]

OK, those are good, solid numbers against the the best. Well, as much of the best as can be considering he hasn't faced the Sox and Yanks.

Maybe that will be the true determining point. Let's see what he does against them and revisit the numbers then.

 

[Shaggy]

Against the hoi polloi of the AL -- Boston, New York, Chicago, L.A., Texas, Tampa Bay -- Halladay is 7-5 with 2 no-decisions.

Against them he's thrown 101 innings and allowed 37 earned runs (3.29 ERA)

Boston ...........14 IP, 5 ER, 1-1 record
NYY ...............25 IP, 10 ER, 1-1 record (1 ND)
CWW .............14 IP, 4 ER, 2-0 record
LAA ...............17 IP, 9 ER, 1-1 record
Texas .............8 IP, 5 ER, 0-1 record
Tampa Bay.......23 IP, 4 ER, 1-1 record (1 ND)

Greinke against ...

Boston ...........No games yet (probably September)
NYY ...............No games yet (probably September)
CWW .............35 IP, 9 ER, 2-2 record (1 ND)
LAA ...............8 IP, 1 ER, 0-1 record
Texas .............16 IP, 1 ER, 1-1 record
Tampa Bay.......12 IP, 7 ER, 0-1 record (1 ND where he gave up 1 run in 7 innings)

Against them he's thrown 71 innings and allowed 18 earned runs. Greinke's pitched roughly 70 percent of the innings but given up half the runs Halladay did. And let's keep in mind Greinke can't face the worst offense in the game, the Royals, as Joe Posnanski noted in today's blog. How some Cy Young candidates fared against the Royals ...

Roy Halladay: 1-0, 0.00 ERA
Josh Beckett: 1-0, 0.00 ERA
C.C. Sabathia: 1-0, 0.00 ERA
Scott Feldman: 1-0, 0.00 ERA
Jon Lester: 1-0, 0.00 ERA
Justin Verlander: 2-0, 2.08 ERA — 19 Ks in 13 innings
King Felix: Has not faced Royals yet .. might in coming week

That's incredible, a great indication of how awful the Royals' offense is.

 

[Oz]

OK, those are good, solid numbers against the the best. Well, as much of the best as can be considering he hasn't faced the Sox and Yanks.

Maybe that will be the true determining point. Let's see what he does against them and revisit the numbers then.

Those games with the Red Sox (Sept. 21-24) and Yankees (Sept. 28-30) certainly look like showcase games to secure the Cy Young if Greinke keeps this up.

When he missed the four-game series at Fenway right before the All-Star break, he had pitched a Wednesday game and was set up perfectly to start the All-Star Game. And he got robbed. I'm guessing the Royals want Greinke play the Red Sox and Yankees next month to help his cause.

 

[Songbird]

Let's put this out there: If, by a simple twist of fate, Greinke doesn't face the Sox and Yanks this season, can he win the Cy Young legitimately?

 

[cwilson3]

Obvious choice is Jeremy Sowers, he's a lefty that plays for Cleveland.

 

[Oz]

Let's put this out there: If, by a simple twist of fate, Greinke doesn't face the Sox and Yanks this season, can he win the Cy Young legitimately?

Yes. He doesn't control who he pitches against, he can only control what he does on the mound. He's dominated the Angels, he's dominated the Rangers (twice), he's dominated just about everyone he's faced. Say he faces only one of the two teams, that makes Greinke no different than Beckett, who nearly won in 2007 when Sabathia got it.

Greinke's been the best pitcher in baseball this season, hurt only by the worst run support in baseball (he ranks 59th out of 59 AL starters with at least 80 innings pitched).

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/split/127/league/al/sort/runSupportAvg/count/41/type/expanded-2/minip/80

Which contributes to losses and no decisions like this ...

May 9 -- 8 innings, 1 run, Royals lose 1-0 at Angels
May 21 -- 6 innings, 2 runs, Royals lose 8-3 at Indians because bullpen blows it (ND)
July 3 -- 6 innings, 2 runs, Royals lose 5-0 against White Sox
July 8 -- 6 innings, 3 runs, Royals lose 3-1 at Tigers
July 18 -- 7 innings, 1 run, Royals lose 4-2 against Rays because bullpen blows it (ND)
July 24 -- 7 innings, 1 run, Royals lose 2-0 against Rangers
July 29 -- 6 innings, 2 runs, Royals lose 7-3 at Orioles because bullpen blows it (ND)
August 14 -- 7 innings, 0 runs, Royals lose 1-0 at Detroit

EDIT -- Forgot to list the opponents when I did that list, but got them now.

 

[JC]

Let's put this out there: If, by a simple twist of fate, Greinke doesn't face the Sox and Yanks this season, can he win the Cy Young legitimately?

not a 2 team league and he doesn't get to face the Royals like the rest do.

 

[spnited]

At this point, it's Greinke.
By Oct. 4, who knows.

 

[JR]

Richard Perkins of the Star doesn't think Doc's in the running this year.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/685954

I love watching Halladay pitch. No nonsense 2 hour (and a bit) games.

 

[Songbird]

Let's put this out there: If, by a simple twist of fate, Greinke doesn't face the Sox and Yanks this season, can he win the Cy Young legitimately?

Yes. He doesn't control who he pitches against, he can only control what he does on the mound. He's dominated the Angels, he's dominated the Rangers (twice), he's dominated just about everyone he's faced. Say he faces only one of the two teams, that makes Greinke no different than Beckett, who nearly won in 2007 when Sabathia got it.

Greinke's been the best pitcher in baseball this season, hurt only by the worst run support in baseball (he ranks 59th out of 59 AL starters with at least 80 innings pitched).

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/split/127/league/al/sort/runSupportAvg/count/41/type/expanded-2/minip/80

Which contributes to losses and no decisions like this ...

May 9 -- 8 innings, 1 run, Royals lose 1-0
May 21 -- 6 innings, 2 runs, Royals lose 8-3 because bullpen blows it (ND)
July 3 -- 6 innings, 2 runs, Royals lose 5-0
July 8 -- 6 innings, 3 runs, Royals lose 3-1
July 18 -- 7 innings, 1 run, Royals lose 4-2 because bullpen blows it (ND)
July 24 -- 7 innings, 1 run, Royals lose 2-0
July 29 -- 6 innings, 2 runs, Royals lose 7-3 because bullpen blows it (ND)
August 14 -- 7 innings, 0 runs, Royals lose 1-0

This might be the best argument so far.

 

[dreunc1542]

Mostly agree, but I'd take out the 6 innings, 3-run game. While it may be a "quality start," I don't think a pitcher is getting screwed by losing that game.

 

[HandsomeHarley]

Completely biased, I am. You have been warned.

I remember the 1970s and '80s well. Whenever a player on a last-place team was up for MVP (read Andre Dawson), the argument was always that it's not about the place of the team; it's about the value of the player.

Then, when it was some big-market player on a first-place team, the argument became it's about how that player led his team to the division title.

It works interchangeably, seemingly only when it involves a big-market player.

That's why Zack Greinke won't win the AL Cy Young Award.

Greinke deserves it. He has the best ERA, second-most strikeouts, most quality starts (I think), and has had the worst run support in the history of Cy Young candidates.

But he deserves it.

Carry on.

 

[JC]

Completely biased, I am. You have been warned.

I remember the 1970s and '80s well. Whenever a player on a last-place team was up for MVP (read Andre Dawson), the argument was always that it's not about the place of the team; it's about the value of the player.

Then, when it was some big-market player on a first-place team, the argument became it's about how that player led his team to the division title.

It works interchangeably, seemingly only when it involves a big-market player.

That's why Zack Greinke won't win the AL Cy Young Award.

Greinke deserves it. He has the best ERA, second-most strikeouts, most quality starts (I think), and has had the worst run support in the history of Cy Young candidates.

But he deserves it.

Carry on.

sounds like a bunch of woe is me small market bull****.

Greinke, at this point deserves it and I believe will get it. This coming from a Blue Jay fan.