2014 NBA Playoffs thread

[Stoney]

the undisputed best player in the league that Jordan was during the stretch from 1991-98 when Jordan (and his team) could not be denied -- unless Jordan wanted to hit baseballs instead.

I think it begins before that. Magic winning the 90 MVP was a farce, in fact he should've finished third behind both Jordan and Barkley that year. That was one of the those grand ole man popularity votes where Magic got the Award because he was the one with all the rings and the writers loved him.

Jordan won the MVP in 88, and probably should've won it in 89 and 90 as well (at least if you were basing it purely on "best overall player" criteria). I think you can legitimately make the claim that Jordan's run atop that mountain ran a full decade from 88-98 (minus the baseball years).

 

[Stoney]

Lebron has been the best player in the game going back further than 09 but for Grifiin here are there 08/09 splits.

Lebron in 08/09
Pts: 28.4 Assts: 7.2 Reb: 7.6 Fg%: .503

Kobe
Pts: 26.8 Assts: 4.9 Reb: 5.2 FG%: .467

Not to mention:

Steals: Lebron 1.8 Kobe 1.5
Blocks: Lebron 1.1 Kobe 0.5

Plus, Lebron was clearly the far better shutdown defender by that point in their careers. Nobody who truly understood the game still thought Kobe was better than Lebron by 08/09. Lebron plainly had him beat in every single area of the game except for outside shooting.

 

[cjericho]

Ask Brian Griffin.

In the same year he criticizes Lebron for being beat by by Duncan he gives Durant a pass for losing to Duncan even though he had a superior team. Teams win these things not individual players.

Apparently he thinks it's is a one on one battle only when it fits his ridiculous narrative.

You're running two different arguments together. I never argued that one needs to win a title to be considered the best player in the league at the moment.

Earlier in the thread I did argue that LeBron's legacy, relative to Jordan's, would be hurt because he left a team close to winning a championship for a built-to-win team, defined what success would be ("4, 5, or 6...") then failed to live up to the bar he set. This was in contrast to Jordan, whose dominance was so complete during his peak years -- 91-98 -- that you could not set a bar too high for what was achieved. He should have won MVP every year he played an entire season. And he was the dominant player on the team that won the NBA championship every entire season he played during that stretch.

Later in the thread, somebody (Stony?) brought up an argument that LeBron has been clearly the best player for the longest time of anybody since Jordan (if I recall it correctly). To that point, I brought up that he's not clearly the best player at the moment, nor was he at the beginning of his run when Bryant was leading an otherwise decent, but hardly great, Lakers team to the 2009 championship in the first year James won MVP.

My point is that LeBron isn't now nor wasn't at the beginning of this stretch (2009) the undisputed best player in the league that Jordan was during the stretch from 1991-98 when Jordan (and his team) could not be denied -- unless Jordan wanted to hit baseballs instead.

If you're going with LeBron 'left a team close to winning a championship for a built-to-win team,' I'll argue that's a point in his favor. When Jordan left for baseball a championship team still was a very good team. When LeBron left Cleveland a team close to winning a championship quickly became a **** team, winning about 40 less games.

 

[Rainman]

Duncan > Kobe?

That, to me, is a way more interesting debate than LeBron vs. Durant.

I say Kobe, by a hair.

It's close, but consider Duncan the best all-around player out of the two. Duncan is a guy who had virtually no flaws to his game from the big man position. He could be (and has often been) whatever the team needed him to be, whether that be the #1 go-to scorer from wherever on the floor (to the extent it's reasonable to expect from a big man), passer, screener, rebounder, defender (inside/out), shotblocker, fast break finisher. You are really nit picking if you can point out his flaws...maybe knock him for not being a freak athlete, or for not being a better FT shooter I guess.

Though he was not remotely a liability in either of those areas. To convey the point further you can put him literally on any team regardless of the team's make up and it's easy to fit him in b/c he can play so many roles so well. Kobe has a great all around game too, but I'm not sure I can make that same claim. Kobe was always best as a ball dominant guard, which is fine, but say you team him up with other ball dominant guards and I think that argument falls apart. (Heck you saw the friction with Shaq.)

 

[Michael_ Gee]

As the last (and maybe that's in all senses of that word) in the series of great NBA big men, Duncan has a special place in its history. Rainman, your post made me feel old. What would Wilt or Kareem say to your proposition that a center can't be the team's number one scoring option? In this century that's true, sure, but it didn't used to be.

 

[BTExpress]

When Jordan left for baseball a championship team still was a very good team. When LeBron left Cleveland a team close to winning a championship quickly became a **** team, winning about 40 less games.

To be exact . . .

Bulls 55-27 the first year without Jordan (a two-game drop from the year before).

Cavaliers 19-63 the first year without LeBron (a 42-game drop from the year before).

 

[Michael_ Gee]

I fail to see the relevance of the records of the superstarless Bulls and Cavs to any assessment of the individual merits of Jordan and James. Of course the Bulls had a better record. The Cavs were a one-man show. That's why James left, remember? The Bulls were a one-man show for the first part of Jordan's career, too. If he'd missed, oh, the 1987-1988 season, I don't think Chicago's record would've been very good.

 

[MisterCreosote]

Because "he made his teammates better" is one of the many bull**** arguments being made here.

 

[Bob Cook]

The next time anyone wonders why ESPN overcovers the Heat instead of, oh, the NBA championship Spurs, just remember what happened to this thread after San Antonio won the title.

 

[cjericho]

I fail to see the relevance of the records of the superstarless Bulls and Cavs to any assessment of the individual merits of Jordan and James. Of course the Bulls had a better record. The Cavs were a one-man show. That's why James left, remember? The Bulls were a one-man show for the first part of Jordan's career, too. If he'd missed, oh, the 1987-1988 season, I don't think Chicago's record would've been very good.

Really? So it says nothing about LeBron's greatness that they finished 42 games worse when he left? There were a few people here saying that he had a pretty solid supporting cast in Cleveland also. I remember reading about how Anderson Varejao does so many things the average fan is not aware of. It may be a little simplistic, but in any sport a team's record without certain players in the lineup gets played up a lot.

 

[Michael_ Gee]

Sideshow Bob was a nice player, but no Hall of Famer, which Pippin was. Minus Jordan Bulls beat minus James Cavs in four straight, none close.

 

[MisterCreosote]

The next time anyone wonders why ESPN overcovers the Heat instead of, oh, the NBA championship Spurs, just remember what happened to this thread after San Antonio won the title.

One might say it's almost as if San Antonio wants it that way.

 

[Bob Cook]

The next time anyone wonders why ESPN overcovers the Heat instead of, oh, the NBA championship Spurs, just remember what happened to this thread after San Antonio won the title.

One might say it's almost as if San Antonio wants it that way.

It's certainly the quietest, least celebrated five-time champion in any sport.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Getting rid of Eva Longoria was the most important moment in franchise history.

 

[MisterCreosote]

San Antonio is one of the three smallest markets in the NBA, right? Championships don't always result in a bigger national fanbase, especially when your superstar and face of the franchise is all steak and almost no sizzle.

Is there another team in any sport from that small a market that was won multiple championships like this? I can't think of any.

 

[dreunc1542]

Green Bay would like a word with you, MC.

 

[MisterCreosote]

Damn. I knew that would come back to bite me.

The Gretzky Oilers were the other one I thought of almost immediately.

 

[Stoney]

The next time anyone wonders why ESPN overcovers the Heat instead of, oh, the NBA championship Spurs, just remember what happened to this thread after San Antonio won the title.

Very good point.

Although we might be able to claim the ole chicken/egg defense (or is it egg/chicken?). Do we incessantly talk Lebron/Heat because ESPN has primed us to do so, or vice versa?

 

[LongTimeListener]

Popovich drinks LeBron's milkshake. He drinks it up.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/index/263449/speedreads-spurs-coach-perfectly-trolls-lebron-james-miami-heat-in-championship-parade#axzz3565QmcwC

 

[93Devil]

I don't think for one second that Pippen was a better player than Wade. Does anyone here think Shaq and Pippen even sniff at an NBA title?

Wade in his prime, which included the start of Bron's stint with the team, was a player who could drive and score at will. Pippen always needed set up for his shots. He was a great defender, but he always needed help getting his shot off. Wide open shots or drives set up by others were his forte.

I'm not buying the Jordan had better support meme. James had a mess in Cleveland, but not in Miami.