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Chef2

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Dec 28, 2009
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OK; ESPN Classic just replayed the game where Hank Gathers broke the NCAA scoring record.

If the 89-90 Loyola Marymount basketball squad could play the team from Grinnell, Iowa who is putting up similar numbers, who would win?

For the record; I absolutely love watching this brand of basketball; Get it, go, shoot;
 
Chef2 said:
OK; ESPN Classic just replayed the game where Hank Gathers broke the NCAA scoring record.

If the 89-90 Loyola Marymount basketball squad could play the team from Grinnell, Iowa who is putting up similar numbers, who would win?

For the record; I absolutely love watching this brand of basketball; Get it, go, shoot;

Not sure who would win, but, man, do I loathe the run-and-gun schemes...all style, little substance.

I prefer the way teams like the Jazz or Spurs play, or, collegiately, Wisconsin and Michigan State.
 
Den1983 said:
Chef2 said:
OK; ESPN Classic just replayed the game where Hank Gathers broke the NCAA scoring record.

If the 89-90 Loyola Marymount basketball squad could play the team from Grinnell, Iowa who is putting up similar numbers, who would win?

For the record; I absolutely love watching this brand of basketball; Get it, go, shoot;

Not sure who would win, but, man, do I loathe the run-and-gun schemes...all style, little substance.

I prefer the way teams like the Jazz or Spurs play, or, collegiately, Wisconsin and Michigan State.

You mean the Michigan State team that runs a fast break play after every made basket allowed?

The Lakers of the 80s would also like a word with you.
 
93Devil said:
Den1983 said:
Chef2 said:
OK; ESPN Classic just replayed the game where Hank Gathers broke the NCAA scoring record.

If the 89-90 Loyola Marymount basketball squad could play the team from Grinnell, Iowa who is putting up similar numbers, who would win?

For the record; I absolutely love watching this brand of basketball; Get it, go, shoot;

Not sure who would win, but, man, do I loathe the run-and-gun schemes...all style, little substance.

I prefer the way teams like the Jazz or Spurs play, or, collegiately, Wisconsin and Michigan State.

You mean the Michigan State team that runs a fast break play after every made basket allowed?

The Lakers of the 80s would also like a word with you.

I know they like to get easy baskets now and then, but my point is you wouldn't classify them "run and gun." Izzo prides himself on defense and rebounding more than any coach.

And I didn't say teams like that don't win - although they are few and far between. I just said I don't care for watching them. Teams like the Suns, Warriors, the ol' Nash-Nowitzki Mavs ... I don't care much for teams who just want to outscore you and don't prioritize stops or rebounding.

I'm sure I'm not in the majority.
 
Unfortunately, the cult of Norman Dale has completely hijacked the whole sport of basketball.

And that's probably a good way to describe it: the most hardcore zealots believe (and endlessly foghorn) that "playing the right way" (i.e., their way) is more noble, admirable, courageous, hardworking, virtuous, morally superior, etc etc etc.

Amusingly enough, "the right way to play" they now endlessly trumpet is largely built on clutch-and-grabbing, body-slamming, the creativity and decision-making ability of everybody on the roster being surrendered to one person (the Armani God on the sideline) and the ultimate goal of the entire game plan distilled down to playing as little actual basketball as you possibly can within the confines of the shot clock (i.e., burning as much time as possible on every possession).

It would be insanity if every team played like Loyola Marymount. But it would be fun as hell, and great for the game at every level, if, say, 25% of the teams did.

Instead, 98.887% of all teams everywhere play, with rare and minor exceptions, the sludgeball of the Bad Boy Pistons and Pat Riley's brassknuckle Knicks (now with the added inanity of clock-milking and chucking up 3's as the shot clock runs out). Some teams play better than others, and they win. Other teams play worse, and they lose. But everyone basically plays the same way.
 
Starman said:
Unfortunately, the cult of Norman Dale has completely hijacked the whole sport of basketball.

And that's probably a good way to describe it: the most hardcore zealots believe (and endlessly foghorn) that "playing the right way" (i.e., their way) is more noble, admirable, courageous, hardworking, virtuous, morally superior, etc etc etc.

Amusingly enough, "the right way to play" they now endlessly trumpet is largely built on clutch-and-grabbing, body-slamming, the creativity and decision-making ability of everybody on the roster being surrendered to one person (the Armani God on the sideline) and the ultimate goal of the entire game plan distilled down to playing as little actual basketball as you possibly can within the confines of the shot clock (i.e., burning as much time as possible on every possession).

It would be insanity if every team played like Loyola Marymount. But it would be fun as hell, and great for the game at every level, if, say, 25% of the teams did.

Instead, 98.887% of all teams everywhere play, with rare and minor exceptions, the sludgeball of the Bad Boy Pistons and Pat Riley's brassknuckle Knicks (now with the added inanity of clock-milking and chucking up 3's as the shot clock runs out). Some teams play better than others, and they win. Other teams play worse, and they lose. But everyone basically plays the same way.

I'm not necessarily condoning sludgeball. I'm just talking about sharp passing, strong screening, getting the best shot available, and then making defense (particularly) transition a priority. I'm no fan of teams who have to bully and push and pull because they don't know how to play the game. But I'm no fan of teams who just carelessly chuck away and have no respect for defense, teamwork or passing.
 
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Starman said:
Instead, 98.887% of all teams everywhere play, with rare and minor exceptions, the sludgeball of the Bad Boy Pistons and Pat Riley's brassknuckle Knicks (now with the added inanity of clock-milking and chucking up 3's as the shot clock runs out). Some teams play better than others, and they win. Other teams play worse, and they lose. But everyone basically plays the same way.

I agree with this completely. I'm also wondering if any high school teams employ the Grinnell method. If you're from a historically poor basketball school - say a school with a low enrollment that never competes - then why not give an extreme strategy like that a chance? At best, maybe you catch the rest of the league off-guard and finish near or above .500. At worst, well, the track and cross country coaches will thank you a lot in the fall and spring...
 
sgreenwell said:
I agree with this completely. I'm also wondering if any high school teams employ the Grinnell method. If you're from a historically poor basketball school - say a school with a low enrollment that never competes - then why not give an extreme strategy like that a chance? At best, maybe you catch the rest of the league off-guard and finish near or above .500. At worst, well, the track and cross country coaches will thank you a lot in the fall and spring...

We had one around here a couple years ago. They averaged 80 ppg (equivalent to 100 ppg in college and 120 in NBA), and finished a little above .500.

Some of the parents thought they should have done better, and they got the coach fired. (Primarily the parents of the 'stars' of the team, who were pissed off that the coach played a 12-deep lineup, which cut into the PT of their little NBA superstars-in-making).

They brought in a guy who preached "fundamentals," the "right way to play," and made sure to drop some snarky comments, "you won't see us running down court and firing up jump shots" and "we're going to pick our best 6 or 7 players, and those will be the guys who play."

He's been there a couple years now. The team averages about 50 ppg, and is now several games UNDER .500. Little Jimmy Superstar-In-Waiting's PT went from about 18 minutes a game to about 28, his scoring average went from 16 to 19 ppg his senior year, and got a partial scholie to a D-II school.
 
sgreenwell said:
Starman said:
Instead, 98.887% of all teams everywhere play, with rare and minor exceptions, the sludgeball of the Bad Boy Pistons and Pat Riley's brassknuckle Knicks (now with the added inanity of clock-milking and chucking up 3's as the shot clock runs out). Some teams play better than others, and they win. Other teams play worse, and they lose. But everyone basically plays the same way.

I agree with this completely. I'm also wondering if any high school teams employ the Grinnell method. If you're from a historically poor basketball school - say a school with a low enrollment that never competes - then why not give an extreme strategy like that a chance? At best, maybe you catch the rest of the league off-guard and finish near or above .500. At worst, well, the track and cross country coaches will thank you a lot in the fall and spring...

At an old shop, I covered a prep GIRLS team that played the Grinnell style. The coach was the XC and track coach and that's the style he had always coached.
The team was dreadful to watch for a couple years, but once they figured out the system and they had the athletes/shooters, the team made it to state. Not a lot of small school Iowa teams have the athletes or numbers to play at that pace.
 
Chef2 said:
OK; ESPN Classic just replayed the game where Hank Gathers broke the NCAA scoring record.

If the 89-90 Loyola Marymount basketball squad could play the team from Grinnell, Iowa who is putting up similar numbers, who would win?

For the record; I absolutely love watching this brand of basketball; Get it, go, shoot;

I'm going to ignore the usual run-and-gun vs. slow-down basketball discussion going on.

Did you really just ask if a Division 1 team, which made it to the Elite Eight without Gathers could beat a D-3 team? That's so incredibly insane, I don't even know where to start.
 
Well I suppose TODAY'S Grinnell team could probably run the 38-42 year-olds from the 1990 LMU team off the court if they played today, but it's insane no matter how you parse it.

In reality, the Grinnell/LMU "System" favors the team with more outstanding athletes, so the teams that would REALLY benefit from using it would be the really good, deep teams.

The idea that a tradionally-weak program could become a powerhouse by using it MIGHT work, if they had a lot of real good athletes who were not superstar basketball players.


The sludgeball system puts tremendous focus on each team having one or two great basketball players. It shortens the game and focuses the offensive opportunities into a very limited number of players. A fullcourt pressure/running system puts focus on having a bunch of good athletes and several decent-to-good basketball players.
 
Get rid of the three-point shot, or move it back 5-7 feet, and you will see the game change.

The easiest way to score used to be the fastbreak layup or scoring off of a backcourt turnover. Now the easiest way to score is to hit 40% of your threes.

Bring back the press.
 
dreunc1542 said:
Chef2 said:
OK; ESPN Classic just replayed the game where Hank Gathers broke the NCAA scoring record.

If the 89-90 Loyola Marymount basketball squad could play the team from Grinnell, Iowa who is putting up similar numbers, who would win?

For the record; I absolutely love watching this brand of basketball; Get it, go, shoot;

I'm going to ignore the usual run-and-gun vs. slow-down basketball discussion going on.

Did you really just ask if a Division 1 team, which made it to the Elite Eight without Gathers could beat a D-3 team? That's so incredibly insane, I don't even know where to start.

I kind of took as more of a jumping off point than an honest question of who would win. IIRC, Grinnell played D-1 Drake a couple years ago, and got blown out by 20+ points. Drake scored well over 100 points.
 
93Devil said:
Get rid of the three-point shot, or move it back 5-7 feet, and you will see the game change.

The easiest way to score used to be the fastbreak layup or scoring off of a backcourt turnover. Now the easiest way to score is to hit 40% of your threes.

Bring back the press.

Institute this rule:

All field goals attempted in the first eight seconds of a team possession will count three points if made, regardless of where on the court the shot is attempted.


Instantly,

a) pressing
b) fast breaks
c) secondary breaks
d) medium-range jump shots,

... all return to the game.
 
Starman said:
93Devil said:
Get rid of the three-point shot, or move it back 5-7 feet, and you will see the game change.

The easiest way to score used to be the fastbreak layup or scoring off of a backcourt turnover. Now the easiest way to score is to hit 40% of your threes.

Bring back the press.

Institute this rule:

All field goals attempted in the first eight seconds of a team possession will count three points if made, regardless of where on the court the shot is attempted.


Instantly,

a) pressing
b) fast breaks
c) secondary breaks
d) medium-range jump shots,

... all return to the game.

I like this idea in theory. But a lot of the charm of the old LMU games is seeing them race like their ass is on fire to the three-point line, and pull it.

My high school team in 1992, at the time set a Kansas state record for three-pointers made in a year; I think the number was 252. That's just how we played. Coach said if you've got an open shot within 25 feet, you're shooting it. We went 24-2 and won State that year.

We even had a set play for a kid, who was 6-3, and had range that started at the locker room. If we got the ball with under 10 seconds or so left, we would leave this kid about a foot or so behind the spike line, act like we were just going to post someone up down low, kick it out to the kid, and launch it.
 
http://www.goducks.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=4304&SPID=236&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=500&ATCLID=204870322

The more things change, the more they stay the same;

Oregon women; Coached by;

Paul Westhead
 
Chef2 said:
I like this idea in theory. But a lot of the charm of the old LMU games is seeing them race like their ass is on fire to the three-point line, and pull it.

My high school team in 1992, at the time set a Kansas state record for three-pointers made in a year; I think the number was 252. That's just how we played. Coach said if you've got an open shot within 25 feet, you're shooting it. We went 24-2 and won State that year.

We even had a set play for a kid, who was 6-3, and had range that started at the locker room. If we got the ball with under 10 seconds or so left, we would leave this kid about a foot or so behind the spike line, act like we were just going to post someone up down low, kick it out to the kid, and launch it.

Well, the real charm in watching the old LMU games, or current Grinnell or other "system" teams, is watching them haul ass up court and doing something -- anything -- not necessarily firing 3-pointers.

As opposed to the overwhelmingly prevalent "9 players jog upcourt at half-speed while one player trudges sleepily across halfcourt in about 8 seconds, comes to a stationary dribble about 35 feet from the basket, no defensive pressure so no 5-second count, the dribbler waits about 20 more seconds while a couple other players move around a bit, maybe somebody gets open but usually nobody does, the dribbler passes it off to the side where the second guard dribbles 5 more seconds off the clock, OMFG the shot clock is running down, better chuck one up. Clang, no good. Opposing team gets rebound, pass to point guard, who begins trudging sleepily upcourt... Repeat for 40 minutes (48 in NBA)."
 
93Devil said:
Den1983 said:
Chef2 said:
OK; ESPN Classic just replayed the game where Hank Gathers broke the NCAA scoring record.

If the 89-90 Loyola Marymount basketball squad could play the team from Grinnell, Iowa who is putting up similar numbers, who would win?

For the record; I absolutely love watching this brand of basketball; Get it, go, shoot;

Not sure who would win, but, man, do I loathe the run-and-gun schemes...all style, little substance.

I prefer the way teams like the Jazz or Spurs play, or, collegiately, Wisconsin and Michigan State.

You mean the Michigan State team that runs a fast break play after every made basket allowed?

The Lakers of the 80s would also like a word with you.

Actually, Michigan State's motto is break on a make, blitz on a miss. They actually push harder on a miss, but unlike other run and gun teams, they are much more selective with their shots. If they don't like what they have, they pull it out and use a significant amount of the clock, that's why their games are often times low scoring.
 
mustangj17 said:
Actually, Michigan State's motto is break on a make, blitz on a miss. They actually push harder on a miss, but unlike other run and gun teams, they are much more selective with their shots. If they don't like what they have, they pull it out and use a significant amount of the clock, that's why their games are often times low scoring.

They break if they have clear numbers. They rarely do because most opponents send 1 to the boards, 4 back (which contributes greatly to their usual high rebounding numbers). When they don't have the numbers, they walk it up verrrrrrrrrry slooooooooooowwwly, and then usually waste about 20 seconds running the Henry Iba Memorial Weave.

Of course, they're like Loyola Marymount compared to Wisconsin, who rarely breaks WITH numbers. I swear I've seen Wisconsin pull it out on a 3-on-none.
 
Starman said:
93Devil said:
Get rid of the three-point shot, or move it back 5-7 feet, and you will see the game change.

The easiest way to score used to be the fastbreak layup or scoring off of a backcourt turnover. Now the easiest way to score is to hit 40% of your threes.

Bring back the press.

Institute this rule:

All field goals attempted in the first eight seconds of a team possession will count three points if made, regardless of where on the court the shot is attempted.


Instantly,

a) pressing
b) fast breaks
c) secondary breaks
d) medium-range jump shots,

... all return to the game.

That won't ever happen, simply because most teams prefer fast-paced anyway since players are only getting bigger and more athletic.
 

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