Running colleges dropping sports thread

[JohnHammond]

Universities count sthletic scholarships as a cost, but that's just a number used for accounting purposes. It doesn't represent actual tuition, housing, or food costs.

 

[Batman]

But is U. of Buffalo making money on athletics?
Is Rowan or Fresno State or Mississippi Valley making money on athletics?
Is any college or university making money on baseball or softball or swimming or equestrian or track or any other sport that isn't football or men's basketball?

There's some SEC and ACC schools that probably make money on baseball. A few of them probably even outdraw men's basketball.

"Making money on athletics" can also be a subjective thing. The athletic department might be in the red, but does having a football team influence more students to enroll? Does a winning football or basketball team generate interest and boost enrollment? Does it generate revenue through donations to other areas besides athletics? There are a number of cases (Alabama and Gonzaga to name two) where it certainly seems to be the case.
The key question is, is it worth it? Is the marketing and name recognition and goodwill worth spending millions of dollars on? That's a question a lot of schools are probably going to be asking in the next decade.

 

[HanSenSE]

Jerry Sullivan: UB football, the elephant in the room - The Buffalo News

 

[UPChip]

Jerry Sullivan: UB football, the elephant in the room - The Buffalo News

UB football has been pretty bad in the MAC East (34-101 since joining in 1999). They had Khalil Mack, fer chrissakes, and went 17-33 (12-20 MAC) in his four-year career. They'd have at least a chance to find a home in FCS, though the only league near them is all private schools (Northeast). Most of the MAC probably should have never made the jump to I-A, but for most of them, the only real solution would be taking the MAC to FCS en masse, which would never happen because everyone's out there hoping for a year like Western had this year or Northern Illinois the year they played in the Orange Bowl.

For example, the academics and athletic critics bandied it about regarding CMU, but the only current FCS teams within the MAC's traditional "heartland" of Michigan, Indiana and Ohio are Youngstown, Dayton and Indiana St. There's another handful in southern Illinois, but the Missouri Valley is a pretty large and stable league as it is.

 

[LanceyHoward]

But is U. of Buffalo making money on athletics?
Is Rowan or Fresno State or Mississippi Valley making money on athletics?
Is any college or university making money on baseball or softball or swimming or equestrian or track or any other sport that isn't football or men's basketball?

If you look at the USA Today charts you will see that generally speaking the top 25 programs in the country are not receiving subsidies. Below that the subsidies start and many go into eight figures.

USA TODAY Sports

 

[LanceyHoward]

UB football has been pretty bad in the MAC East (34-101 since joining in 1999). They had Khalil Mack, fer chrissakes, and went 17-33 (12-20 MAC) in his four-year career. They'd have at least a chance to find a home in FCS, though the only league near them is all private schools (Northeast). Most of the MAC probably should have never made the jump to I-A, but for most of them, the only real solution would be taking the MAC to FCS en masse, which would never happen because everyone's out there hoping for a year like Western had this year or Northern Illinois the year they played in the Orange Bowl.

For example, the academics and athletic critics bandied it about regarding CMU, but the only current FCS teams within the MAC's traditional "heartland" of Michigan, Indiana and Ohio are Youngstown, Dayton and Indiana St. There's another handful in southern Illinois, but the Missouri Valley is a pretty large and stable league as it is.

Buffalo is still a relatively large media market. If UB dropped football I am sure moving the basketball program to the Big East is a pipe dream. But what about the A-10? Given the absence of an NBA team in Buffalo I think they might draw more local interest in A-10 beasketball than MAC football.

 

[cisforkoke]

For example, the academics and athletic critics bandied it about regarding CMU

CMU is a joke and should be closed.

 

[UPChip]

CMU is a joke and should be closed.

Go to hell.

 

[LanceyHoward]

There's some SEC and ACC schools that probably make money on baseball. A few of them probably even outdraw men's basketball.

"Making money on athletics" can also be a subjective thing. The athletic department might be in the red, but does having a football team influence more students to enroll? Does a winning football or basketball team generate interest and boost enrollment? Does it generate revenue through donations to other areas besides athletics? There are a number of cases (Alabama and Gonzaga to name two) where it certainly seems to be the case.
The key question is, is it worth it? Is the marketing and name recognition and goodwill worth spending millions of dollars on? That's a question a lot of schools are probably going to be asking in the next decade.

Alabama is the 24th largest state in population. South Carolina is 23rd. These states contain three of the last five universities to win the BCS. Let's look at the SAT scores of the incoming freshmen as reported on College Board for the 25th and 75th percentile:

Auburn 1140-1320
Clemson 1220-1400
South Carolina 1190-1360
Alabama 1060-1290

I really don't see much of a correlation between successful football teams and the quality of incoming students as measured by SAT scores.

 

[dixiehack]

I don't know about S.C., but that's a fairly meaningless stat for the Alabama schools, where most of the entering students take the ACT.

 

[Cosmo]

Northeast is a limited scholarship league, too, so that makes it even less of an option.

 

[Jake_Taylor]

Ten years ago, Mizzou was ranked No. 1 in football and fielding record numbers of applications. Today it is shutting down dorms and laying off employees because enrollment is so far down.

 

[Batman]

Ten years ago, Mizzou was ranked No. 1 in football and fielding record numbers of applications. Today it is shutting down dorms and laying off employees because enrollment is so far down.

And, if course, that has everything to do with football and nothing to do with campus insanity.

 

[Batman]

Alabama is the 24th largest state in population. South Carolina is 23rd. These states contain three of the last five universities to win the BCS. Let's look at the SAT scores of the incoming freshmen as reported on College Board for the 25th and 75th percentile:

Auburn 1140-1320
Clemson 1220-1400
South Carolina 1190-1360
Alabama 1060-1290

I really don't see much of a correlation between successful football teams and the quality of incoming students as measured by SAT scores.

What about volume? How much did enrollment and applications increase or decrease in the same span?
It's nice to attract nothing but Rhodes scholars, but that's not the only mission of a big state university.

 

[Jake_Taylor]

And, if course, that has everything to do with football and nothing to do with campus insanity.

Football was a big part of that becoming a PR nightmare.

 

[dixiehack]

Enrollment at Alabama was stuck around 20,000 students forever and ever, including when I arrived in the early 90s. Now it is up to 37k and more than half of each freshman class is made up of out of state students. It probably has the most aggressive growth policy of any flagship state university, which is how it has survived draconian state budget cuts.

 

[Batman]

Football was a big part of that becoming a PR nightmare.

Hardly the only part, though. And it had nothing to do with the team's performance on the field.

 

[Batman]

Enrollment at Alabama was stuck around 20,000 students forever and ever, including when I arrived in the early 90s. Now it is up to 37k and more than half of each freshman class is made up of out of state students. It probably has the most aggressive growth policy of any flagship state university, which is how it has survived draconian state budget cuts.

The football program has been a key part of the growth strategy, hasn't it? They've used it perfectly as a PR and marketing tool for the rest of the university. And God only knows how many millions in donations they've raked in because of it.

 

[Jake_Taylor]

Hardly the only part, though. And it had nothing to do with the team's performance on the field.

Missouri's issues aren't that much different than a lot of campuses, but the football team shined a bright spotlight on it. If they had been winning more in either of the revenue sports I bet it would have been more easy to keep donor involvement and enrollment from tanking at the same rate.

Spending is out of control a lot of places, but when done right the athletic department is the best PR, admissions and fundraising tool a lot of state schools have. It also adds to campus environment in general. ACC sports are a big reason my wife chose UVA over Ivy Leagues. But the arms race and the idea every school wants to be Bama is too much.

 

[LanceyHoward]

I don't know about S.C., but that's a fairly meaningless stat for the Alabama schools, where most of the entering students take the ACT.

ACT Scores from CollegeBoard
Clemson 26-31
South Carolina 25-30
Auburn 24-30
Alabama 23-31

So the comparative ACT scores are comparable to the SAT scores.