Poetry

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I present to you, "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock" by T.S. Eliot. We spent four weeks in my high school English class analyzing the hell out of this thing - and I didn't understand a damn thing anyone said about it.

But it still, several years later, haunts me to this day.

Oh, and to whoever posted the Emily Dickinson poem: **** that ****.

S’io credesse che mia risposta fosse
A persona che mai tornasse al mondo,
Questa fiamma staria senza piu scosse.
Ma perciocche giammai di questo fondo
Non torno vivo alcun, s’i’odo il vero,
Senza tema d’infamia ti rispondo.


LET us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;
Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
The muttering retreats
Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels
And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells:
Streets that follow like a tedious argument
Of insidious intent
To lead you to an overwhelming question …
Oh, do not ask, “What is it?”
Let us go and make our visit.

In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.

The yellow fog that rubs its back upon the window-panes,
The yellow smoke that rubs its muzzle on the window-panes
Licked its tongue into the corners of the evening,
Lingered upon the pools that stand in drains,
Let fall upon its back the soot that falls from chimneys,
Slipped by the terrace, made a sudden leap,
And seeing that it was a soft October night,
Curled once about the house, and fell asleep.

And indeed there will be time
For the yellow smoke that slides along the street,
Rubbing its back upon the window-panes;
There will be time, there will be time
To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet;
There will be time to murder and create,
And time for all the works and days of hands
That lift and drop a question on your plate;
Time for you and time for me,
And time yet for a hundred indecisions,
And for a hundred visions and revisions,
Before the taking of a toast and tea.

In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.

And indeed there will be time
To wonder, “Do I dare?” and, “Do I dare?”
Time to turn back and descend the stair,
With a bald spot in the middle of my hair—
[They will say: “How his hair is growing thin!”]
My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,
My necktie rich and modest, but asserted by a simple pin—
[They will say: “But how his arms and legs are thin!”]
Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
In a minute there is time
For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

For I have known them all already, known them all:—
Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
I know the voices dying with a dying fall
Beneath the music from a farther room.
So how should I presume?

And I have known the eyes already, known them all—
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?
And how should I presume?

And I have known the arms already, known them all—
Arms that are braceleted and white and bare
[But in the lamplight, downed with light brown hair!]
It is perfume from a dress
That makes me so digress?
Arms that lie along a table, or wrap about a shawl.
And should I then presume?
And how should I begin?
. . . . .
Shall I say, I have gone at dusk through narrow streets
And watched the smoke that rises from the pipes
Of lonely men in shirt-sleeves, leaning out of windows?…

I should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.
. . . . .
And the afternoon, the evening, sleeps so peacefully!
Smoothed by long fingers,
Asleep … tired … or it malingers,
Stretched on the floor, here beside you and me.
Should I, after tea and cakes and ices,
Have the strength to force the moment to its crisis?
But though I have wept and fasted, wept and prayed,
Though I have seen my head [grown slightly bald] brought in upon a platter,
I am no prophet—and here’s no great matter;
I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
And in short, I was afraid.

And would it have been worth it, after all,
After the cups, the marmalade, the tea,
Among the porcelain, among some talk of you and me,
Would it have been worth while,
To have bitten off the matter with a smile,
To have squeezed the universe into a ball
To roll it toward some overwhelming question,
To say: “I am Lazarus, come from the dead,
Come back to tell you all, I shall tell you all”—
If one, settling a pillow by her head,
Should say: “That is not what I meant at all.
That is not it, at all.”

And would it have been worth it, after all,
Would it have been worth while,
After the sunsets and the dooryards and the sprinkled streets,
After the novels, after the teacups, after the skirts that trail along the floor—
And this, and so much more?—
It is impossible to say just what I mean!
But as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in patterns on a screen:
Would it have been worth while
If one, settling a pillow or throwing off a shawl,
And turning toward the window, should say:
“That is not it at all,
That is not what I meant, at all.”
. . . . .
No! I am not Prince Hamlet, nor was meant to be;
Am an attendant lord, one that will do
To swell a progress, start a scene or two,
Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool,
Deferential, glad to be of use,
Politic, cautious, and meticulous;
Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse;
At times, indeed, almost ridiculous—
Almost, at times, the Fool.

I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.

I do not think that they will sing to me.

I have seen them riding seaward on the waves
Combing the white hair of the waves blown back
When the wind blows the water white and black.

We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us, and we drown.
 
Sometimes the best poetry is the poetry that we agonize over trying to understand its meaning.
 
No...I understood the meaning. I sat right there, read the words, and envisioned a dude freezing cold walking down a street at night.

That works for me, at least. Never worked for the folks teaching the classes, though.
 
jgmacg said:
Bubbler said:
Are there forms of art you appreciate, but can't get into? Mine is poetry.

I was watching the American Experience on Walt Whitman tonight. I have an appreciation for what Whitman means to our culture, I understand how historically relevant he is, and God knows I could never write like him.

But that's just it ... I don't want to ever write like him. He might not have seemed purple prose-ish in his time, but by God does he ever now. All poetry, no matter what form, no matter whether it's traditional poetry form or stream of consciousness, just doesn't interest me at all. In fact, it bores me to tears. Yet, I appreciate it for the talent it takes to do it.

It's kind of like golf, I appreciate the hell out of the sport and those who play it, but I rarely watch it.

It's weird because I'm as pretentious as it gets with other art forms. I love film, art and music that challenges you intellectually in the same way good poetry does. I love great songwriters, playwrights and screenwriters to death, but poetry remains inpenetrable to me. Or I to it. I can't decide.

Can you get into poetry?

I'm not sure how you can distinguish modern songwriting from poetry. Read Dylan's lyrics. He's as much a poet as a lyricist.

In fact, modern music has largely replaced poetry in popular culture.

And Whitman isn't purple in the great scheme of things. His work remains supple and pretty muscular, especially relative to the Romantics and the Neo-classicists. If you want eggplant purple, give Wordsworth or Shelley or Byron a ride.

I agree with this wholeheartily. Songwriting is poetry ... with a significant, obvious, difference.

Here's the rub: would you read Dylan without musical accompaniment? He's an undeniable poet, but I'd be lying if I said I'd read his words without the music to go with it.
 
zebra -- you're solid nails.

And that one is so much better than The Wasteland, which is utter bull****, despite having some lovely phrases.
 
The Good Doctor said:
jgmacg said:
Thanks, Palli.

Because it's bedtime I'll ring off, but in every class I've ever taught, and here in the Workshop, I encourage young writers of every kind to read and write as much poetry as they can stomach.

It's the purest application of language, and in a lot of ways it's the purest form of storytelling. I write a lot of it by way of simple exercise, and read a lot of it to keep me in touch with what's possible. I read Whitman at my wife's grandpa's funeral.

If Whitman's not your guy, try Wallace Stevens or William Carlos Williams. Or Frost or Sandburg or Adrienne Rich. If you want great poetry of the ordinary, of the everyday, read Seamus Heaney or Charlie Simic. Billy Collins, from the PBS show tonight, is terrific. Or Donald Hall, who's as big a baseball fan as anyone on this site. Philip Levine for the poetry of American Work, or Jim Dickey for the poetry of the American South. Bukowski, Merwin, Jarrell. Ginsberg, Eliot, Auden, Thomas, Plath.

There's someone out there who'll crack your head open. In a good way. It just takes some time to find them.

No love for Coleridge? :(

Sure, I just didn't want to get all encyclopedic.

And for Palli, I have to say that I may be more receptive to poetry as an everyday thing only because I don't listen to much popular music anymore. Maybe that's part of it. It may be too, that through some quirks in my patchwork education, I've spent as much time studying with poets as I have with nonfiction and fiction writers. So poetry doesn't seem academic to me, if that makes any sense. It's something a lot of my friends and mentors do for a living. I've been really lucky in that regard. Really lucky with my mentors in general.

Having said all that, I have really catholic tastes in the form, from Homer to Denis Johnson. I'll read anybody once.
 
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Bubbler said:
jgmacg said:
Bubbler said:
Are there forms of art you appreciate, but can't get into? Mine is poetry.

I was watching the American Experience on Walt Whitman tonight. I have an appreciation for what Whitman means to our culture, I understand how historically relevant he is, and God knows I could never write like him.

But that's just it ... I don't want to ever write like him. He might not have seemed purple prose-ish in his time, but by God does he ever now. All poetry, no matter what form, no matter whether it's traditional poetry form or stream of consciousness, just doesn't interest me at all. In fact, it bores me to tears. Yet, I appreciate it for the talent it takes to do it.

It's kind of like golf, I appreciate the hell out of the sport and those who play it, but I rarely watch it.

It's weird because I'm as pretentious as it gets with other art forms. I love film, art and music that challenges you intellectually in the same way good poetry does. I love great songwriters, playwrights and screenwriters to death, but poetry remains inpenetrable to me. Or I to it. I can't decide.

Can you get into poetry?

I'm not sure how you can distinguish modern songwriting from poetry. Read Dylan's lyrics. He's as much a poet as a lyricist.

In fact, modern music has largely replaced poetry in popular culture.

And Whitman isn't purple in the great scheme of things. His work remains supple and pretty muscular, especially relative to the Romantics and the Neo-classicists. If you want eggplant purple, give Wordsworth or Shelley or Byron a ride.

I agree with this wholeheartily. Songwriting is poetry ... with a significant, obvious, difference.

Here's the rub: would you read Dylan without musical accompaniment? He's an undeniable poet, but I'd be lying if I said I'd read his words without the music to go with it.

There's your in, Bubs.

Poetry -- good poetry, at least -- was meant to be read aloud.

If you can find, at your library, a record of Ginsberg reading America, or Dylan Thomas reading any of his stuff, pick it up.

You'll dig.
 
IMO, the best poetry is poetry you read and instantly relate to, on any number of levels. If you can't understand it, it's not "speaking" to ya.

And jg, I know this will sound completely antithetical to the usual advice for writers (read, read and read some more), but one of the reasons I'm not very interested in reading poets is that I don't want to be influenced by them. I look at that type of writing as intensely personal, and, as such, I don't want someone else's thoughts/style, etc. creeping in, even subconsciously.
 
jgmacg said:
Having said all that, I have really catholic tastes in the form, from Homer to Denis Johnson. I'll read anybody once.

You're a gentleman and a Jesuit, my friend. :)
 
pallister said:
IMO, the best poetry is poetry you read and instantly relate to, on any number of levels. If you can't understand it, it's not "speaking" to ya.

And jg, I know this will sound completely antithetical to the usual advice for writers (read, read and read some more), but one of the reasons I'm not very interested in reading poets is that I don't want to be influenced by them. I look at that type of writing as intensely personal, and, as such, I don't want someone else's thoughts/style, etc. creeping in, even subconsciously.

I think that's an apt caveat.

But I also encourage young writers to imitate their betters. Briefly, and in a controlled setting. I go so far as to have them hand-copy chunks of classic texts, to get a feel for what it's like to write that way.

I do this because I think it helps speed them toward a voice of their own, and gets the mimicry out of their systems a little faster.

Poetry's different though, as you point out, and having one or two powerful voices in your head can be problematic. That's why I try to keep my noggin filled with lots of different voices at all times, so I'm not shoplifting anyone in particular.

That said, though, TS Eliot was the one who told us that "Good writers borrow. Great writers steal."
 
jgmacg said:
That said, though, TS Eliot was the one who told us that "Good writers borrow. Great writers steal."

He pretty much had to say that, though, since Pound probably wrote most of his memorable lines.
 
Nice little Hitchens piece on Mr. Ezra "I'm Cantos Crazy!" Pound in this month's Atlantic.
 
jgmacg said:
Nice little Hitchens piece on Mr. Ezra "I'm Cantos Crazy!" Pound in this month's Atlantic.

A guy advocates for a few fascist regimes, and he has to hear about it for eternity.

I will check that out, though, despite my utter loathing of Hitchens.
 
Give me women, wine and snuff
Until I cry out hold, enough!
You may do so sans objection
Till the day of resurrection;
For bless my beard they aye shall be
My beloved Trinity.

--Keats
 
**** Keats.




An Irish Airman Foresees His Death by W.B. Yeats

I know that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above:
Those that I fight I do not hate,
Those that I guard I do not love:
My country is Kiltartan Cross,
My countrymen Kiltartan's poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public men, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death.
 
Pallister pretty much captures it as far as my attitude towards poetry.

It's pretty sad that I have more intimate knowledge of noted poet laureate Luther Campbell than I do Whitman, Emerson, Thoreau, Joyce, Ginsburg, Keats, etc., combined.

Put Her In The Buck, indeed.

Oh and for the haiku boys?

**** Haiku in butt
Make it beg for sweet release
Haiku hatred burns
 

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