NL ROY

[Columbo]

Nothing meaningful in June when he whacked that walk off against Wang.
Or on July 4 when he drilled one off Borowski. If the Marlins miss by a game, let 'em eat that.

I'm clearly very biased.
I'll also say that Uggla winning the award would be fine by me. Hell of a year.

But to dismiss Zimmerman because his team sucks is a joke. This ain't MVP. This is rookie of the year. And you have a 20-homer, 100-RBI guy with a strong batting average who plays the living **** out of third base.
If he wins, it is well earned.

I'm not dismissing him because of it, but I am deducting for it.

It's EASIER to get those stats under those circumstances.

I tried.

 

[Moderator1]

No, it isn't. It's harder when your team sucks balls. At least that's my thought on that.

Whatever. He's had a hell of a year, on that we agree. If he wins, I'm happy. If he doesn't, I'm not pissed if Uggla does.
I just don't want him dismissed because the Nats blow britches. And you're not, so we're cool on that.
He's become so much more disciplined at the plate. I thought he was smidge overmatched earlier in the year. Two strikes almost always led to a third.
Not anymore.

 

[bigpern23]

I really don't care how many outs there are when a guy drives in his runs.

You're really stretching to find advantages for HanRam.

I just don't think it's an argument you can win.

If you give up an out to drive in a run, it is a lesser RBI than if you get on on a hit or walk.

Are you going to argue that?

And, success in a pennant race is a greater success than when your team is 25 games ahead or behind in the standings. Simply is.

I didn't realize sac flies were only good for a half run.

 

[Columbo]

I really don't care how many outs there are when a guy drives in his runs.

You're really stretching to find advantages for HanRam.

I just don't think it's an argument you can win.

If you give up an out to drive in a run, it is a lesser RBI than if you get on on a hit or walk.

Are you going to argue that?

And, success in a pennant race is a greater success than when your team is 25 games ahead or behind in the standings. Simply is.

I didn't realize sac flies were only good for a half run.

I had exited this thread, shaking my head.

But since you decided to pipe up.

Chalk up another post to the intellectually dishonest.

 

[Montezuma's Revenge]

I really don't care how many outs there are when a guy drives in his runs.

You're really stretching to find advantages for HanRam.

I just don't think it's an argument you can win.

If you give up an out to drive in a run, it is a lesser RBI than if you get on on a hit or walk.

Are you going to argue that?

And, success in a pennant race is a greater success than when your team is 25 games ahead or behind in the standings. Simply is.

Ramirez makes outs MORE OFTEN than Zimmerman. He gets on base LESS FREQUENTLY. He hits with LESS POWER.

And again, Zimmerman is the superior defensive player.

You have too many facts working against you, Colombo.

 

[Columbo]

I really don't care how many outs there are when a guy drives in his runs.

You're really stretching to find advantages for HanRam.

I just don't think it's an argument you can win.

If you give up an out to drive in a run, it is a lesser RBI than if you get on on a hit or walk.

Are you going to argue that?

And, success in a pennant race is a greater success than when your team is 25 games ahead or behind in the standings. Simply is.

Ramirez makes outs MORE OFTEN than Zimmerman. He gets on base LESS FREQUENTLY. He hits with LESS POWER.

And again, Zimmerman is the superior defensive player.

You have too many facts working against you, Colombo.

Fact is, they are in a dead heat in the three categories you mention.

Fact is, Zimmerman's production is slightly above average among third basemen.

Ramirez's is top 5 among shortstops.

You really don't get the importance of Ramirez's 44 steals, either. Eighty-four times, Ramirez has gotten himself to second or third all by himself. In addition he has 13 HRs from middle infield position.

His steals and slugging percentage have allowed for him to score on groundouts and sacrifice flies dozens of times.

I know none of this sinks in, but I still enjoy instructing you.

 

[shotglass]

I know none of this sinks in, but I still enjoy instructing you.

This is why I quit trying. I'd be ashamed typing **** like that.

You're not smarter than everyone else ... you just think you know something the rest of us don't.

 

[Columbo]

I know none of this sinks in, but I still enjoy instructing you.

This is why I quit trying. I'd be ashamed typing **** like that.

The way I feel about cats signaling Sieg Heil!

 

[Kid Presentable]

I hate agreeing with Pube, but he makes a few valid points:

HanRam's production is quite good for a SS, while Zimmerman was about an average offensive third baseman this year. Not that he doesn't have tremendous upside, to channel Mel Kiper, but 18 bombs and .476 slugging from a third baseman isn't as valuable as .459 OPS, 13 bombs, 100 runs and 44 SBs from a shortstop.

Ramirez, meanwhile, has hit 10 of his 13 homers since July 1. He struggled for stretches in the first few months, but he has really come on of late -- his OPS was .726 on June 21, and now is back up to .807. He makes errors, like all young players do, but he is a terrific young player who will make the Red Sox regret trading him. He could break the Marlins record for runs scored in a season, and his 80 percent stolen base success rate is very good -- not excellent, but very good.

My one quibble with Pube is his contention that HanRam's steals put him over the top. Stolen bases is one of those stats whose value has been inflated by the popularity of fantasy baseball. As long as a player converts at least 75 percent of his SB attempts he is helping his team, so Hanley is definitely valuable in that department. But let's not go overboard -- his SBs help him as much as Zimmerman's excellent defense helps him.

That being said, both would be fine selections for ROY, or Uggla. I'd probably vote for Ramirez, but Zimmerman winning would not be near the travesty Pubert makes it out to be.

 

[Columbo]

I hate agreeing with Pube, but he makes a few valid points:

HanRam's production is quite good for a SS, while Zimmerman was about an average offensive third baseman this year. Not that he doesn't have tremendous upside, to channel Mel Kiper, but 18 bombs and .476 slugging from a third baseman isn't as valuable as .459 OPS, 13 bombs, 100 runs and 44 SBs from a shortstop.

Ramirez, meanwhile, has hit 10 of his 13 homers since July 1. He struggled for stretches in the first few months, but he has really come on of late -- his OPS was .726 on June 21, and now is back up to .807. He makes errors, like all young players do, but he is a terrific young player who will make the Red Sox regret trading him. He could break the Marlins record for runs scored in a season, and his 80 percent stolen base success rate is very good -- not excellent, but very good.

My one quibble with Pube is his contention that HanRam's steals put him over the top. Stolen bases is one of those stats whose value has been inflated by the popularity of fantasy baseball. As long as a player converts at least 75 percent of his SB attempts he is helping his team, so Hanley is definitely valuable in that department. But let's not go overboard -- his SBs help him as much as Zimmerman's excellent defense helps him.

That being said, both would be fine selections for ROY, or Uggla. I'd probably vote for Ramirez, but Zimmerman winning would not be near the travesty Pubert makes it out to be.

I can live with all that.

Perhaps Josh Johnson will finish with 16 wins and make it even more interesting.

 

[Oz]

Had I known Columbo was the former Pube, I would not have argued so much before. Should have known. My apologies.

 

[Montezuma's Revenge]

I feel the same way, Oz.

Should have known. Should have known.

 

[zeke12]

Don't blame yourselves.

Could have happened to anybody.

 

[dooley_womack1]

The five Marlins listed on the ballot should have been the first clue.

 

[Columbo]

The five Marlins listed on the ballot should have been the first clue.

Well, you haven't seen the Marlins play very much and, in particular, seen Olsen pitch.

 

[Chi City 81]

The five Marlins listed on the ballot should have been the first clue.

Well, you haven't seen the Marlins play very much and, in particular, seen Olsen pitch.

Judging from the attendance, neither have most people in South Florida.

 

[Columbo]

The five Marlins listed on the ballot should have been the first clue.

Well, you haven't seen the Marlins play very much and, in particular, seen Olsen pitch.

Judging from the attendance, neither have most people in South Florida.

Touche, Doc.

Touche.

 

[Oz]

SI.com's John Donovan says a Marlin should win the NL ROY over Ryan Zimmerman. And he's not talking about Hanley Ramirez.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_donovan/09/20/nl.roy/index.html

 

[Columbo]

SI.com's John Donovan says a Marlin shoould win the NL ROY over Ryan Zimmerman. And he's not talking about Hanley Ramirez.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_donovan/09/20/nl.roy/index.html

It should be Uggla now.

 

[XXXX]

honestly to break up the marlins love fest, but some rookies that should be on the ballot is Cole Hamels (cole hamels recieves HBO - on basic cable.) <phanboy>