More DMN updates

[Frank_Ridgeway]

then the rest of his assertions you would agree are right on. It's time for a fundamental shift in management...

The author is a career magazine guy. He needs to sell one issue per month, not 31. I don't think his ideas would work. I don't think running two pages of national/international news is going to satisfy people in Dallas, a major city where a lot of people are engaged in international trade.

 

[gandhithegreat]

then the rest of his assertions you would agree are right on. It's time for a fundamental shift in management...

The author is a career magazine guy. He needs to sell one issue per month, not 31. I don't think his ideas would work. I don't think running two pages of national/international news is going to satisfy people in Dallas, a major city where a lot of people are engaged in international trade.

OK, now we got something.

First, because he's a magazine guy, that disqualifies him as a critic? That's the culture that exists in this "biz" I know nothing about. If you don't like what someone says, you spin, spin, spin. For most in the "biz" these days, it's all about what happened in the past. It's all about copy guys earning $60K and working there 18-20 years, going for 35.

I have no problem with earning $60K and putting in long hours and mileage, in fact I think most copy guys should be earning more and working more...but I do have an issue with the complacency that tends to follow this and the sense of entitlement. What more do shareholders (owners) owe desk guys? Moreover, what more do shareholders owe Publishers and Senior Management? That's an even better question.

In this biz, you ask professional team owners to put the best product "show" on the field. In return, you sell some papers based on coverage on those teams. What makes a newspaper immune from putting the best product on the "field." Sometimes you just need some re-building years. And in this climate, shifting your focus to understand how The Dallas Morning News will survive 5-, 10 and 20 years down the road is what improves stock pricing and jobs for the future generations.

My experience at The News: no one gave a **** about the future generations, just what they were "entitled" to.

 

[Frank_Ridgeway]

When he doesn't understand something as basic as where the bulk of our money comes from, that disqualifies him as someone whose opinion I'm going to respect. You don't have to have played baseball in order to cover the sport, although it helps, but you do need to make the effort to learn how things work before baseball people are going to show you any respect. No doubt he would feel the same way if I were telling him how to run a magazine. Readers might not understand he doesn't know what he's talking about, but we do.

I've worked on and competed against papers that tried some of the things he suggests, like all-local. Doesn't work well. Readers want one-stop shopping.

What makes the newspaper biz completely different than the magazine business is that in magazines you can do very well serving a niche as long as the demographic is good enough, and you can publish with a very small staff. In the world of large newspapers, you have to serve an extremely diverse audience in order to support a newsroom numbering in the hundreds.

 

[gandhithegreat]

More on the topic:

Read Jacques' debut today....not bad. At least he started with a topic that can produce a lightning rod. The QB situation at Texas is always a big story, especially the one following Vince Young.

Might I suggest as other controversial topics:

--the fact that the game has passed Bill Parcells by.

--the fact that Tom Hicks should sell or move the Rangers.

--Why the bizarre occurence of just as many Yankees fans are at Yankees-Rangers series....bizarre.

--the genius of Jerry Jones selling out 10 straight season without delivering another Super Bowl or playoff victory.

And I hope he doesn't think it slipped by, but you've got to figure he is going to work the Ohio State victory into his first column....****ing homer ;D

 

[steveu]

Pure and simple, if the Rangers are moved then DFW becomes less of a sports town in my humble opinion (much like Miami will if the Marlins go). Sell, don't move.

 

[Kritter47]

--Why the bizarre occurence of just as many Yankees fans are at Yankees-Rangers series....bizarre.

Happens with every major sport in Dallas.

Red Wings-Stars games attract a lot of Wings jerseys.
Lakers-Mavs games break out the LA jerseys.
Yankees/Red Sox-Rangers
Eagles/Skins/Giants-Cowboys.

My guess is that Dallas attracts a lot of transplants who don't necessarily give up their allegiance to their chosen sports teams. It's annoying as a fan and kind of funny of TV, but it's been a fact of life in the Metroplex for ages.

 

[gandhithegreat]

--Why the bizarre occurence of just as many Yankees fans are at Yankees-Rangers series....bizarre.

Happens with every major sport in Dallas.

Red Wings-Stars games attract a lot of Wings jerseys.
Lakers-Mavs games break out the LA jerseys.
Yankees/Red Sox-Rangers
Eagles/Skins/Giants-Cowboys.

My guess is that Dallas attracts a lot of transplants who don't necessarily give up their allegiance to their chosen sports teams. It's annoying as a fan and kind of funny of TV, but it's been a fact of life in the Metroplex for ages.

yeah I would agree, but when the Cowboys play in Arizona, there are as many Cowboy fans as Cardinals ones...so I don't think it's as noticeable when the Giants/Skins, etc. come to Dallas.

I sat on the first base side of two Yankee/Rangers games this season and I was shocked. I've noticed it before, but this season was bizarre. The stadium was probably 90% and almost 35-40% of the spectators had some NY **** on it. In fact, the friend that went with me, a buddy who grew up here, talked about the Yankees in terms of we and our team...I was floored. I grew up hating the Yankees, and he lived in the City for a couple of years...

 

[kleeda]

As a onetime-longtime resident in the area, the fans for visiting teams started showing up in the early 80s when the Great (Dying) Northern Cities started to dry up. Bruce Springsteen's song "Seeds" about sums the movement up. Should have heard the Tigers fans and the strong Michigan accents in the late 80s. Went to one Rangers series in '87 I will promise you was 80+ percent Tigers fans.

As for the D Magazine article. Sorry Frank, it's about dead on. I subscribed to that paper for years, but when I was home in August it was close to unreadable. And I have many friends there. I think the bulk of comics were spread over about 10 pages of some tab-sized vomitous mess that I would have otherwise ignored. And of course there were specific comics sprinkled throughtout the rest of the paper. I don't want to have to search for Dilbert.

Can't give you the numbers offhand of what classifieds brought to the paper, but I know the two biggest fears were always that Dillard's would go belly up and that a new business model (the internet?) would kill classifieds. I know at my former shop one year the biggest advertiser of any kind was a helicopter maker. It was all classifieds and feel-good fullpage ads about the company. Obviously there ain't too many readers ready to drop $4 million on a new ride, so it wasn't like they were trying to sell the things.

I remember in the heyday about two pages worth of classifieds dedicated just to the area's big defense contractors (General Dynamics, Vought, Bell-Textron). There was probably another page of subsidiary businesses to those.

So yes, I do believe classifieds carried the freight for many of the glory years at the DMN.

 

[kleeda]

So the problem with newspapers' financial stability is copy editors making a living wage at 60K after 10-20 years in the biz? Why does it not surprise me that this theory is proffered by a media owner?

LoneStar, $60K is well above a "living wage" in that market and you know it. I would (with a great deal of knowledge about the area) put the market price of a quality experienced copy editor at between $40K-$50K. Of course many are making more than that, but then isn't that part of the author's point?

 

[da man]

More on the topic:

Read Jacques' debut today....not bad. At least he started with a topic that can produce a lightning rod. The QB situation at Texas is always a big story, especially the one following Vince Young.

Might I suggest as other controversial topics:

--the fact that the game has passed Bill Parcells by.

--the fact that Tom Hicks should sell or move the Rangers.

--Why the bizarre occurence of just as many Yankees fans are at Yankees-Rangers series....bizarre.

--the genius of Jerry Jones selling out 10 straight season without delivering another Super Bowl or playoff victory.

And I hope he doesn't think it slipped by, but you've got to figure he is going to work the Ohio State victory into his first column....****ing homer ;D

Topics 1 and 2 have already been beaten into the ground by Galloway

Topic 3 isn't bizarre at all. As my old friend kleeda mentioned, lots of Northern transplants live in DFW, and they bring their allegiances. You should have seen Texas Stadium the last time the Steelers came in. Lots of black and gold.

And the fact is that except for the Cowboys, DFW is not a very good sports town. Fans show up, but they come to Rangers games to picnic and to Mavericks and Stars games to see and be seen. The only die hard fans in town are Cowboys fans. Which is why, when the Yankees -- a team with a huge national fan base -- are in town, all their fans come at the expense of the less devout Rangers fans. It's the same reason there are more Cowboys fans than Cardinals fans in the stands for games at Arizona. The locals don't care (and those who do were Cowboys fans before there was a team in AZ) and the Cowboys have a devoted national fan base.

 

[Frank_Ridgeway]

Can't give you the numbers offhand of what classifieds brought to the paper, but I know the two biggest fears were always that Dillard's would go belly up and that a new business model (the internet?) would kill classifieds.

OK, here's a chart that shows how advertising has gone nationally since 1984. Even in 1984, classified revenue was about a third of the total, as I said earlier. So while a nice source of revenue, it's always been dwarfed by display:

http://www.stateofthenewsmedia.org/2006/chartland.asp?id=182&ct=line&dir=&sort=&col1_box=1&col2_box=1&col3_box=1&col4_box=1

 

[Angola!]

More on the topic:

Read Jacques' debut today....not bad. At least he started with a topic that can produce a lightning rod. The QB situation at Texas is always a big story, especially the one following Vince Young.

Might I suggest as other controversial topics:

--the fact that the game has passed Bill Parcells by.

--the fact that Tom Hicks should sell or move the Rangers.

--Why the bizarre occurence of just as many Yankees fans are at Yankees-Rangers series....bizarre.

--the genius of Jerry Jones selling out 10 straight season without delivering another Super Bowl or playoff victory.

And I hope he doesn't think it slipped by, but you've got to figure he is going to work the Ohio State victory into his first column....****ing homer ;D

Topic 3 isn't bizarre at all. As my old friend kleeda mentioned, lots of Northern transplants live in DFW, and they bring their allegiances. You should have seen Texas Stadium the last time the Steelers came in. Lots of black and gold.

And the fact is that except for the Cowboys, DFW is not a very good sports town. Fans show up, but they come to Rangers games to picnic and to Mavericks and Stars games to see and be seen. The only die hard fans in town are Cowboys fans. Which is why, when the Yankees -- a team with a huge national fan base -- are in town, all their fans come at the expense of the less devout Rangers fans. It's the same reason there are more Cowboys fans than Cardinals fans in the stands for games at Arizona. The locals don't care (and those who do were Cowboys fans before there was a team in AZ) and the Cowboys have a devoted national fan base.

I went to one of the Yankees games and even as a Yankees fan I was pretty shocked at how many of them there were. I used to live in Seattle and even when the Mariners sucked and the Yankees were good it wasn't the same breakdown as in Arlington. Of course one theory I had is since the Yankees only come to the state of Texas once or twice, their fans may be more inclined to travel to see them play. There aren't a lot of AL stadiums near Texas, especially if you live in West Texas.

 

[da man]

More on the topic:

Read Jacques' debut today....not bad. At least he started with a topic that can produce a lightning rod. The QB situation at Texas is always a big story, especially the one following Vince Young.

Might I suggest as other controversial topics:

--the fact that the game has passed Bill Parcells by.

--the fact that Tom Hicks should sell or move the Rangers.

--Why the bizarre occurence of just as many Yankees fans are at Yankees-Rangers series....bizarre.

--the genius of Jerry Jones selling out 10 straight season without delivering another Super Bowl or playoff victory.

And I hope he doesn't think it slipped by, but you've got to figure he is going to work the Ohio State victory into his first column....****ing homer ;D

Topic 3 isn't bizarre at all. As my old friend kleeda mentioned, lots of Northern transplants live in DFW, and they bring their allegiances. You should have seen Texas Stadium the last time the Steelers came in. Lots of black and gold.

And the fact is that except for the Cowboys, DFW is not a very good sports town. Fans show up, but they come to Rangers games to picnic and to Mavericks and Stars games to see and be seen. The only die hard fans in town are Cowboys fans. Which is why, when the Yankees -- a team with a huge national fan base -- are in town, all their fans come at the expense of the less devout Rangers fans. It's the same reason there are more Cowboys fans than Cardinals fans in the stands for games at Arizona. The locals don't care (and those who do were Cowboys fans before there was a team in AZ) and the Cowboys have a devoted national fan base.

I went to one of the Yankees games and even as a Yankees fan I was pretty shocked at how many of them there were. I used to live in Seattle and even when the Mariners sucked and the Yankees were good it wasn't the same breakdown as in Arlington. Of course one theory I had is since the Yankees only come to the state of Texas once or twice, their fans may be more inclined to travel to see them play. There aren't a lot of AL stadiums near Texas, especially if you live in West Texas.

There's not a lot of anything nearby if you live in West Texas.

 

[kleeda]

Can't give you the numbers offhand of what classifieds brought to the paper, but I know the two biggest fears were always that Dillard's would go belly up and that a new business model (the internet?) would kill classifieds.

OK, here's a chart that shows how advertising has gone nationally since 1984. Even in 1984, classified revenue was about a third of the total, as I said earlier. So while a nice source of revenue, it's always been dwarfed by display:

http://www.stateofthenewsmedia.org/2006/chartland.asp?id=182&ct=line&dir=&sort=&col1_box=1&col2_box=1&col3_box=1&col4_box=1

OK, great. You found numbers. The real argument is over what exactly "carrying the freight' means. Admittedly it is not the largest percentage of a newspaper's revenue, but it certainly appears it could be No. 2 on the list. And based on the chart you showed, a source of revenue that is a little more volatile than Retail. That said, anything that makes up 33 percent of advertising revenue is certainly going to be seen as critical. What the numbersdon't tell us (and the author argues) is how much does it cost a paper to run that classified department?

Your arguments are misleading in several areas, however. Page count for Classifieds vs. Retail doesn't add up in 1-to-1 numbers. A sold out Classified page draws more money than a full-page retail ad. If that were not true (and I know it is true) when there wouldn't be recent years where the difference in revenue from Retail over Classifieds was as narrow as 5 percent.

Anyway, Frank, I think we agree on most things and definitely not trying to pick a fight. But I think the persuasiveness of the author's argument is not dimmed much by his "carry the freight" comment.

The DMN is a dimished product and perhaps a failing business model. They were the big bully on the block, but what does the bully do when there's no one left to push around? In the case of Belo, it looks like they long for the Good Old Days and fail to adapt to a changing market.

 

[Angola!]

There's not a lot of anything nearby if you live in West Texas.

Oil and mesquite and more oil.

 

[Frank_Ridgeway]

Your arguments are misleading in several areas, however. Page count for Classifieds vs. Retail doesn't add up in 1-to-1 numbers. A sold out Classified page draws more money than a full-page retail ad. If that were not true (and I know it is true) when there wouldn't be recent years where the difference in revenue from Retail over Classifieds was as narrow as 5 percent.

Well, in the chart, display would encompass "retail" and "general," so it was never quite that close. And the chart deals in dollars, not page counts. I did acknowledge earlier that you make more money per page on classified, but then it costs a bit more to produce because you need a crew of people handling the phones.

My dad ran a classifieds department for years, I know how it works almost as well as I know how newsrooms work -- I grew up listening to it. Primarily, the bulk of the classified revenue comes from real estate agents and car dealers, although on major metros employment ads are a huge factor, too. My dad didn't spend his days watching the phone room, he had an assistant for that. He spent his days selling to Realtors and car dealers. They're basically display ads that run in the classified section, but they are counted as classified. Legals also are counted as classified and are the most profitable form of advertising there is because local governments are required by law to buy them -- and are pretty much exempt from changing market conditions. So while craigslist is hurting us a bit with private-party agate ads, the real source of our classifieds trouble is that the auto industry is struggling. I think automotive advertising is down by like 14 percent in newspapers this year.

The DMN is a dimished product and perhaps a failing business model.

A diminished product, yes. A failing business model, I don't think so. I read that they're still at a 20 percent profit margin but were once in the 30s. You know, it's a mature market now, not the 1980s boomtown it once was. It's unrealistic to expect the paper to perform the way it used to. A lot of it is beyond the control of the people running things.

 

[pressboxer]

There's not a lot of anything nearby if you live in West Texas.

Oil and mesquite and more oil.

And sand.

 

[kleeda]

I should clarify my "failing business model" comment. It is only failing in the context of the ridiculous expectations of newspaper owwership/stock holders. And I'm pulling for the DMN. I read it every day for 28 years. And of the (at-times) four DFW papers I read most every day, it was the one I read first.

 

[gandhithegreat]

A lot of it is beyond the control of the people running things.

That's good for shareholders to know...

 

[Frank_Ridgeway]

A lot of it is beyond the control of the people running things.

That's good for shareholders to know...

What shareholders think and what we understand are two different things. Do you get off on being a complete douche?