Just watched We Are Marshall

[buckweaver]

I saw "61*" a few years ago and felt like I was watching everything I read unfold on the screen. It's not my favorite baseball movie, but it's up there -- definitely, in my top two true stories, though "Eight Men Out" is No. 1.

Damn straight.

I did a report in a History of American Sports class -- we watched movies and analyzed them (greatest class ever) -- and I did a report on the Blacksox Scandal. A couple weeks later, I sit down in class, and on comes "Eight Men Out." I'd never seen it before. Even with all the common knowledge I had stored over the years and with all the information I gathered from doing the report, I still learned about the ongoings from the movie. That's quality.

Hopefully you didn't learn that Cicotte was promised a bonus for winning 30 games and Comiskey benched him. 8)

That didn't happen. Not even close.

 

[mike311gd]

I saw "61*" a few years ago and felt like I was watching everything I read unfold on the screen. It's not my favorite baseball movie, but it's up there -- definitely, in my top two true stories, though "Eight Men Out" is No. 1.

Damn straight.

I did a report in a History of American Sports class -- we watched movies and analyzed them (greatest class ever) -- and I did a report on the Blacksox Scandal. A couple weeks later, I sit down in class, and on comes "Eight Men Out." I'd never seen it before. Even with all the common knowledge I had stored over the years and with all the information I gathered from doing the report, I still learned about the ongoings from the movie. That's quality.

Hopefully you didn't learn that Cicotte was promised a bonus for winning 30 games and Comiskey benched him. 8)

That didn't happen. Not even close.

To be honest, I only saw the movie that one time. It's a movie I always say I'm going to buy when I see it ... but I never think to actually look for it. It was the only movie shown in that course -- and there were other good ones -- that I walked away saying, "Wow."

What I did take from it, though, was how much those players really hated Comiskey. And my grandpa used to tell me stories upon stories about Shoeless Joe, but he never mentioned left out the court case/ruling. It was just cool to see everything that went down -- how he was bullied into making his mark and such. I wonder how much of that movie was Hollywood, though.

 

[buckweaver]

To be honest, I only saw the movie that one time. It's a movie I always say I'm going to buy when I see it ... but I never think to actually look for it. It was the only movie shown in that course -- and there were other good ones -- that I walked away saying, "Wow."

What I did take from it, though, was how much those players really hated Comiskey. And my grandpa used to tell me stories upon stories about Shoeless Joe, but he never mentioned left out the court case/ruling. It was just cool to see everything that went down -- how he was bullied into making his mark and such. I wonder how much of that movie was Hollywood, though.

The movie followed the book very, very well.

The problem is: the book was written like a novel rather than a meticulous, academic treating of the scandal. So Asinof included some stories that are likely accurate but have have never been corroborated (such as Williams' wife being threatened) -- and others that have just plain been debunked (such as Comiskey's payroll being the lowest in the league; in fact, he had one of the three highest -- around $90-95K.)

Asinof got the major parts right, and he was the first to really put the whole thing together, so he's to be commended for that. But there's a few myths that live on because everybody saw/read them in Eight Men Out -- and they're not true.

 

[mike311gd]

I haven't read the book. I knew the payroll was high for those times. And that always made it easier to see Comiskey try to choke away the bonuses from his players at the end of the year -- just common sense: The more you spend, the more you want back.

And another item goes into the Amazon wish list. ...

 

[buckweaver]

I haven't read the book. I knew the payroll was high for those times. And that always made it easier to see Comiskey try to choke away the bonuses from his players at the end of the year -- just common sense: The more you spend, the more you want back.

And another item goes into the Amazon wish list. ...

Thing is ... he never promised those big bonuses. The reason the Cicotte bonus story is so debunked is because there IS evidence of other bonuses paid to other players -- Lefty Williams got an extra $375 because he won 15 games in 1919, and there is documentation of that.

So not only does it not make sense that Comiskey would promise a $10K bonus to Cicotte when he paid a $375 bonus to his other starter, but when you look at the box scores for both 1917 and 1919, it shows that Cicotte was never benched to "save him for the Series" -- in fact, he was used in relief between starts because the White Sox were still battling Boston for the pennant.

It's a major theme in "Eight Men Out," that Comiskey's refusal to pay him his bonus was the reason why Cicotte agreed to the fix. But it's totally inaccurate.

 

[mike311gd]

I haven't read the book. I knew the payroll was high for those times. And that always made it easier to see Comiskey try to choke away the bonuses from his players at the end of the year -- just common sense: The more you spend, the more you want back.

And another item goes into the Amazon wish list. ...

Thing is ... he never promised those big bonuses. The reason the Cicotte bonus story is so debunked is because there IS evidence of other bonuses paid to other players -- Lefty Williams got an extra $375 because he won 15 games in 1919, and there is documentation of that.

So not only does it not make sense that Comiskey would promise a $10K bonus to Cicotte when he paid a $375 bonus to his other starter, but when you look at the box scores for both 1917 and 1919, it shows that Cicotte was never benched to "save him for the Series" -- in fact, he was used in relief between starts because the White Sox were still battling Boston for the pennant.

It's a major theme in "Eight Men Out," that Comiskey's refusal to pay him his bonus was the reason why Cicotte agreed to the fix. But it's totally inaccurate.

I was talking about the World Series money. Wasn't there word that Comiskey wasn't going to give out the promised amount?

 

[buckweaver]

I was talking about the World Series money. Wasn't there word that Comiskey wasn't going to give out the promised amount?

No.

What happened was Comiskey withheld the Series checks of the seven players rumored to be involved -- plus Weaver's. Comiskey had been aware of the fix since Game 1. Because the players grumbled about it, and no one had yet come forth with any public information (Comiskey had very publicly and very loudly promised a $10,000 bonus to anyone who could provide "serious evidence" that the Series wasn't on the level), he sent the players their checks in November and then went to work hushing up the rumors.

 

[BigSleeper]

In no particular order:

Top five based (however loosely) on real events: 61*, Eight Men Out, Hoosiers, Miracle, Cinderella Man

Top five fictitious sports movies: North Dallas Forty, The Bad News Bears (the original), Rocky, Bull Durham, Breaking Away (though you can argue it's not really a sports movie)

Rudy. Rudy. Rudy. Rudy.

I enjoyed "Rudy" for whatever it was, fact or fiction. One of the greatest things about that movie was the scene it inspired in The Simpsons:

<Rudy chasing after Super Bowl-bound bus>

Rudy: Can I come?
Homer: You're too small to go to the Super Bowl, Rudy.
Rudy: But what I lack in size, I make up for in obnoxiounesssssss!

 

[expendable]

I love Remember the Titans but a lot of the movie is fiction.

I've never seen it for that reason. The two schools merged were not a white and a black school. It was just two rival schools that hated one-another -- and Alexandria, VA, a small southern town? Ummmm....no. Truth is, the schools in Alexandria were desegregated some years before they were merged into TC. Williams.

 

[mike311gd]

I was talking about the World Series money. Wasn't there word that Comiskey wasn't going to give out the promised amount?

No.

What happened was Comiskey withheld the Series checks of the seven players rumored to be involved -- plus Weaver's. Comiskey had been aware of the fix since Game 1. Because the players grumbled about it, and no one had yet come forth with any public information (Comiskey had very publicly and very loudly promised a $10,000 bonus to anyone who could provide "serious evidence" that the Series wasn't on the level), he sent the players their checks in November and then went to work hushing up the rumors.

Some of that's coming back to me, but I didn't know all of that. I'm wondering how I got a 95 on the paper now. ...

 

[doctor x]

I love Remember the Titans but a lot of the movie is fiction.

I've never seen it for that reason. The two schools merged were not a white and a black school. It was just two rival schools that hated one-another -- and Alexandria, VA, a small southern town? Ummmm....no. Truth is, the schools in Alexandria were desegregated some years before they were merged into TC. Williams.

I've always liked 'Titans' because it reminds me of my hometown, where the white and black schools merged and won back-to-back small-school state championships in Florida in the same time setting as the movie. (Granted, massive white flight, but among the white players who stayed was a lineman who signed with Florida. Also on team was Derrick Ramsey, a QB then but later a Super Bowl tight end with Raiders and Patriots.)

 

[expendable]

I love Remember the Titans but a lot of the movie is fiction.

I've never seen it for that reason. The two schools merged were not a white and a black school. It was just two rival schools that hated one-another -- and Alexandria, VA, a small southern town? Ummmm....no. Truth is, the schools in Alexandria were desegregated some years before they were merged into TC. Williams.

I've always liked 'Titans' because it reminds me of my hometown, where the white and black schools merged and won back-to-back small-school state championships in Florida in the same time setting as the movie. (Granted, massive white flight, but among the white players who stayed was a lineman who signed with Florida. Also on team was Derrick Ramsey, a QB then but later a Super Bowl tight end with Raiders and Patriots.)

Change T.C. Williams and Alexandria to "Small school and town in Florida" and you have a good, true to the facts movie.

 

[sportsnut]

Cinderella Man was way, way underrated. Could not believe how good it was when I saw it on HBO and could not understand why it was so panned upon release.

Liked Remember the Titans, but I had a personal connection to the story. Friday Night Lights was good if you realized they took real names and made another story (also amusing how Buddy Garrity shows up in film and on the TV show). Coach Carter was pretty good.

Hey don't forget that Connie Britton also played the coach's wife in the movie just like she does on the TV show.

The best movie ever I need to give Monday Night Mayhem and the story of Howard Cosell and how they had more action in the booth then on the field. I know its a made for tv movie but it was a great movie.

 

[sportschick]

The Cutting Edge is the only sports movie worth watching . . .

 

[Starman]

I was talking about the World Series money. Wasn't there word that Comiskey wasn't going to give out the promised amount?

No.

What happened was Comiskey withheld the Series checks of the seven players rumored to be involved -- plus Weaver's. Comiskey had been aware of the fix since Game 1. Because the players grumbled about it, and no one had yet come forth with any public information (Comiskey had very publicly and very loudly promised a $10,000 bonus to anyone who could provide "serious evidence" that the Series wasn't on the level), he sent the players their checks in November and then went to work hushing up the rumors.

I assume you probably have already, but if you haven't, dig up a copy of "The Hustler's Handbook" by Ed Linn and Bill Veeck, which devotes quite a lengthy chapter to the diary of Harry Grabiner, the secretary (in today's terminology he would be the GM) of the White Sox in 1919, which goes into many details not found in Asinof's book.

One thing pointed out in the Bill James Historical Abstract (first edition), which also had a lengthy chapter on the scandal, is that the White Sox payroll was a little deceptive because it included the $15,000 salary of Eddie Collins (whose guaranteed contract had been bought from the Athletics in the middle of the Federal League war), which made him one of the half-dozen highest-paid players in the league. Once you got past that $15,000, that left 16-18 players to cut up not very much money.

Comiskey's average salary might have been OK, but his median salary was chicken scratch.

 

[buckweaver]

Comiskey's average salary might have been OK, but his median salary was chicken scratch.

You are correct, sir. Collins' $15,000 salary (which he had written into his contract when he was sold by Connie Mack) and Schalk's $8,000 skewed the average much higher than it actually was. The Sox's median salary was indeed chicken scratch.

However, the point remains: that chicken-scratch median was in line with every other American League club and, arguably, was among the highest. (It's hard to be certain of all the numbers, because some weren't documented by the league office.)

Comiskey did underpay his stars relative to the rest of the league, but some of that can be attributed to the fact that Cobb and his ilk were able to restructure their deals -- for a LOT more money; $12-15K then $20K for Cobb, $18.5K for Speaker -- due to the threat of piracy from the Federal League. Jackson, who was as big a star as any of them, was sold by Cleveland in 1915 and never had a chance to negotiate with leverage from the Feds. So he was underpaid by THAT standard, but there were very few players getting that kind of money. Those guys were exceptions.

As for the others ... Cicotte didn't command that kind of money until 1917, and by then he was ancient. Weaver was a skilled negotiator and got a sweet three-year deal (for $7,250 per, and no 10-day clause) from Comiskey before the 1919 season that made him among the highest-paid infielders in the league. So Weaver wasn't underpaid by any means.

The only guys who could stake a claim to that complaint were Williams and Felsch, but the former wasn't a full-time starter until 1919 and Felsch had only been in the league since 1915. Relative to their experience, they were paid maybe a little below-average, but not by much.

Good stuff, Starman.

 

[Bubbler]

It is also not true that Hawk Harrelson bleated "Yeeeesss!" into a megaphone when Chick Gandil finished off Game 6 with a game-winning single.

It IS true that Jay Mariotti did not go in the locker room after the game and that Cincinnati manager Pat Moran was tackled in the coaches' box by a drunk White Sox fan.

 

[FishHack76]

A "Remember the Titans" that made my eyes roll was the "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, hey, hey, good bye ... " at Bertier's funeral.
I didn't like the movie all that much either, and around everyone else, I felt Elaine on the "Seinfeld" episode about "The English Patient."

 

[bigpern23]

I didn't think it was a great movie because I knew the story and nothing surprised me. But, it was a good movie. I was just wondering if you folk thought which was better - that one or in my opinion, the best modern sports movie, which was also based on a true story, Remember the Titans.

Remember the Titans was good. Cinderalla Man was much better. Friday night Lights took liberties with the story and let some details go that just bugged the hell out of me. If I'd not read the book I probably would have enjoyed it more.

This isn't aimed at you, novelist, but I absolutely HATE going to a movie with someone who read the book the movie is based on... Being a dinosaur geek since I was able to read, I was totally pumped for Jurassic Park. My girlfriend at the time had read the book and did nothing but ***** the entire movie about how it wasn't like the book...

*Sigh*

I'm surprised that was her reaction. I read the book as well and loved it, but man, seeing those dinosaurs onscreen for the first time was flat-out amazing. They had never looked nearly that realistic in any other film in cinema history. It really was like looking at a live dinosaur for the first time. For that, I could forgive any differences between the book and the movie.

That said, I didn't think the movie was all that different from the book. Sure, they had to leave out a few parts (including an action sequence with the T-Rex trying to get at Timmy, Lex and Dr. Grant while they rode down a river in a raft and Pterodactyls attacking them in the same raft), but that's to be expected when you try to turn a 500-page book into a movie whose script is probably only about 120 pages.

The film version of 'The Lost World,' on the other hand, had nothing more to do with the book than the title, which is a shame since the book was pretty darn good.

 

[Ben_Hecht]

It is also not true that Hawk Harrelson bleated "Yeeeesss!" into a megaphone when Chick Gandil finished off Game 6 with a game-winning single.

It IS true that Jay Mariotti did not go in the locker room after the game and that Cincinnati manager Pat Moran was tackled in the coaches' box by a drunk White Sox fan.

Jerry Reinsdorf DID provide the players flat Asti Spumanti on the heels of the 1917 championship . . . NOT after clinching the 1919 pennant, as depicted in the movie.