High school etiquette question

[RickStain]

This came up in a game I covered last night, although none of the coaches said anything afterwards.

Team A dominates Team B in the first half, racking up 30-point lead.

In the second half with a running clock on mercy rule, A pulls its starters. B doesn't have much depth at all, so they can't really do that. They score twice and give up once, leaving the lead at 24 points. Team B recovers a fumble around the A 40 with 3 minutes left in the game, and Team A puts its starting defense back in. Team B still marches right down on them and scores to cut it to 16 with 1 minute to go.

You are Team B's coach. Your team is down two scores with 1 minute to play, about to kick. The only reason you are this close is because Team A was nice enough to pull his starters and not embarrass you.

Do you onside kick and go for the win?

 

[mustangj17]

You go for the win.

Team A's coach needs to be confident when he puts in his backups that he can win.

As a track coach, I know only to put in my junior varsity lineup after my team has scored 69 points, or I have a significant amount of points with some studs coming up.

If I pull my varsity runners too early, or I miscount, that's my own damn fault. I don't expect the other coach a break because I underestimated his/her runners.

 

[93Devil]

You never wholesale change.

Team A should have worked in reserves with the starters, then in time he or she would of had all the reserves in.

Although scoring 16 points in one minute is next to impossible.

 

[kingcreole]

I'm thinking of what Herm Edwards would say.

 

[Ace]

You never wholesale change.

Team A should have worked in reserves with the starters, then in time he or she would of had all the reserves in.

Although scoring 16 points in one minute is next to impossible.

Yeah. It's a moot point. No way a team can score twice in a minute with a running clock.

 

[outofplace]

You have to go for the win there, but do so knowing that Team A's coach will run the score up on you next time he gets a chance to do so.

 

[Steak Snabler]

If I'm the coach who has the big lead, my mentality is "we'll stop trying to score if you guys will."

I don't think a 30-point halftime lead is necessarily safe, not with all the crazy clock-stoppage rules in high school football.

I'd leave my starters in for most of the third quarter, maybe not my quarterback or an injury-prone star skill player, but definitely the O-line and most of the defense.

 

[Hank_Scorpio]

You never wholesale change.

Team A should have worked in reserves with the starters, then in time he or she would of had all the reserves in.

Although scoring 16 points in one minute is next to impossible.

Yeah. It's a moot point. No way a team can score twice in a minute with a running clock.

May not have been a running clock anymore.

Here, the running clock mercy rule is imposed when the margin is 35 points. But if the team can get it under 35 points, regular clock rules then apply.

 

[mustangj17]

If I'm the coach who has the big lead, my mentality is "we'll stop trying to score if you guys will."

I don't think a 30-point halftime lead is necessarily safe, not with all the crazy clock-stoppage rules in high school football.

I'd leave my starters in for most of the third quarter, maybe not my quarterback or an injury-prone star skill player, but definitely the O-line and most of the defense.

You don't stop trying to score. You stop throwing passes, blitzing and running outside the tackles. If your backups can punch it up the middle for long touchdown drives, who cares? As a coach you did what you could.

 

[Football_Bat]

I wish we had a running clock at 30 points here. Here it's 45 points and with the agreement of the losing coaches, most of whom are too proud to agree to it even when they're getting donkey-stomped.

 

[deskslave]

I think you go for the win, but you forfeit your right to complain if the other team puts its starters back in and returns an interception for a touchdown, or knocks your QB down on four straight plays.

Same line of thinking with optional running clocks. If you turn it down, you can't ***** about the other team running up the score. (Once covered a game in a state where it was optional in the third quarter, mandatory in the fourth. Team goes up 42-0 at half, losing team declines running clock. Once it was 63-0 and still in the third, they took the running clock.)

 

[Starman]

One of the most consistently irritating/enraging topics in sports is the responsibility of the winning team not to hurt the losing team's feelings in blowout games.

Once Coach A cleared his bench with the 30-point lead, he had done all he needed to do (probably more). Once Team B narrowed the margin to 3 touchdowns (24 points), Coach A was completely within all rights to bring back anybody and everybody he wanted to.

Not only is Coach B completely and fully within his rights to onside kick, if I am Coach A, I'm a little insulted if he doesn't. You do everything you can to try to win, on every play. You pay the opponent the respect of your best effort.

All of the various holding-down-the-score tactics the hand-wringers always demand of winning coaches (benching all of your even marginally-decent players, stalling, making no attempt whatsoever to score, starting scrubs if the game appears to be a mismatch) have one thing in common:

They are all variations of point-shaving.

 

[RickStain]

Thanks for the input.

I guess the reason I asked is because the losing team is made up almost entirely of freshmen and sophomores, that's just all they have out for the team. They get skunked every game.

But their coaching staff is *incredibly* sensitive about the opponents' running up the score on them. If the other team's starters are still playing at 21-0 in the second quarter, the whining begins on the sidelines, or at least it seems that way. They practically demand the JV team for the second half in every game.

If I were coaching, I would never complain about having the score run up on me. But I think that if I were in a situation like this, I wouldn't go for the win. It just seems wrong knowing the only reason I'd win is because they tried to be nice.

(Incidentally, the team in question did onside kick, it was grabbed cleanly by the receiving team and returned for a touchdown).

 

[Hank_Scorpio]

A slight tangent here.

How would you feel if a team, up by 24 or so, took a knee five yards from the end zone and another TD, so they don't run up the score?

Should the defending team be pissed that they didn't take the chance to score again since they were that close?


I remember something like this happened in an NFL game a ways back. Wayne Fontes' Lions took a knee inside the 10 late in the fourth quarter. Forget the score, but Detroit led by a bunch. Jacksonville wasn't too happy.

 

[GB-Hack]

A slight tangent here.

How would you feel if a team, up by 24 or so, took a knee five yards from the end zone and another TD, so they don't run up the score?

Should the defending team be pissed that they didn't take the chance to score again since they were that close?


I remember something like this happened in an NFL game a ways back. Wayne Fontes' Lions took a knee inside the 10 late in the fourth quarter. Forget the score, but Detroit led by a bunch. Jacksonville wasn't too happy.

I have seen it done in high school games before, and I think there is acceptable.

I think in the pros it could be taken as a sign of disrespect, but I think recently I've seen teams go on a drive late in a game, and then kneel it down when they could run the clock out in one set of downs.

 

[CentralIllinoisan]

State-rated team up 49-0 at half after scoring 41 in the second quarter. They pull the starters in the second half, and opposing team keeps in starters and finds way to score twice and make the game 49-14. They even onside kick twice despite a running clock and no chance of a comeback.

State-rated team brings back in starters and scores again, 56-14. Fine.

State-rated team then onside kicks and recovers the ensuing kickoff and THEN runs a fake punt during that series. All while leading 56-14.

To me, there are no written rules in how to deal with blowouts, I usually just know what is not appropriate when I see it. And that was not appropriate.

Of the two conferences I cover, the week in question and the one before had combined halftime scores of 198-0 and 194-0 -- so blowouts and how to handle them were on everyone's mind.

Instead of grilling a specific coach or method, four days later for my weekly notebook column, I called up a well-respected former coach (two state titles, oodles of wins and league titles) who blew out plenty of people in his hey day and then coached a terrible team in his second go-round. He had some great insight.

His bottom line: “Sometimes, for cryin’ out loud, you just have to use common sense. ... It's no reward to humiliate another person, and that’s the overriding rule to me.”

 

[CarltonBanks]

Pennsylvania had a running clock rule back when I was working there (not sure if it still does, if it was the whole state, just the WPIAL, District 9 or what). The rule stipulated if a team goes up by 35 in the second half the running clock starts...and once it starts it cannot stop, only for timeouts and changes of possession. Well, Team A returns the opening kickoff of the second half for a touchdown to go up 42-7. Running clock starts. Team B returns the ensuing kickoff for a touchdown, and follows up with a hellacious rally to pull within 10 points with four minutes left in the game. Team A turns the ball over at midfield with over three minutes left, but Team B can't punch it in and ends up losing by 10. My question, say Team B did score to pull within a field goal, how STUPID was/is that rule? How pissed would you be as a coach?

 

[imjustagirl]

Play a better first half? :D

 

[bigpern23]

I think in a blowout it is just as disrespectful to AVOID scoring as it is to RUN UP the score. It's pretty simple. If you're up big and you've put in the second stringers, let those kids go out and play hard. Don't run gimmick plays and things of that sort, but play the game the straight up and tell the other team, 'Stop us.'

If your starters can't stop their second stringers, well, you know what, you're going to get blown out. Quit crying about it and teach your kids something from the loss.

 

[Starman]

Thanks for the input.

I guess the reason I asked is because the losing team is made up almost entirely of freshmen and sophomores, that's just all they have out for the team. They get skunked every game.

But their coaching staff is *incredibly* sensitive about the opponents' running up the score on them. If the other team's starters are still playing at 21-0 in the second quarter, the whining begins on the sidelines, or at least it seems that way. They practically demand the JV team for the second half in every game.

If I were coaching, I would never complain about having the score run up on me. But I think that if I were in a situation like this, I wouldn't go for the win. It just seems wrong knowing the only reason I'd win is because they tried to be nice.

(Incidentally, the team in question did onside kick, it was grabbed cleanly by the receiving team and returned for a touchdown).

The absolute definition of P-U-S-S-Y.

Coach better.

If your whole team is made up of freshmen and sophomores, you probably ought to be playing a JV schedule anyway.

And, having been a coach in something like that situation, I can tell you that a coach whining about the other team running up the score is about the worst possible role-modeling a coach could even conceivably do. You might as well lie face-down on the ground and cry.

I remember something like this happened in an NFL game a ways back. Wayne Fontes' Lions took a knee inside the 10 late in the fourth quarter. Forget the score, but Detroit led by a bunch. Jacksonville wasn't too happy.

Well, NFL and low-level high school are completely different animals.

But in this case, I'll say this: If I were William Clay Ford, I would have fired Wayne Fontes on the spot.

Why? In the NFL, point differential is one of the playoff tiebreakers.

Yes, it's fairly far down the list, unlikely ever to come into play, but it IS on the list.

And it's the job of an NFL head coach to do everything he possibly can to get his team into the playoffs -- no matter how far-fetched -- and if it hurts the opponents' feelings, tough ****.

(Of course, there were lots of other times and for lots of different reasons, I would also have fired Wayne Fontes on the spot.)