Here's a new Internet-based question ...

[SF_Express]

First of all, for all those who know who I am, I actually have no specific story in mind, and this is a hypothetical, not based on a current real-life situation. The question came up in the context of something else. And it also occurred to me also based on the BASW thread.

I work on the 'Net. In the course of a normal story or column, I might do updates or tweaks or minor corrections 10 times (hopefully not that many, because then it means it wasn't edited very well in the first place, but you get the point).

OK, we're now allowed to be associate members of APSE, for example, and someday, there might be a place -- maybe a separate category or whatever -- for us in the writing contest.

Now, say I'm looking through columns for possible contest entries, and I find a really good one from a couple of months back -- but it has a typo in the third paragraph.

Am I obligated to enter it in the form it was in on the original day of publication? Or can I fix the typo, which I would in the course of business as usual anyway if I found a mistake on the site, no matter how old that story is.

This is hardly life or death -- although this narrow thread might die quickly -- but some might find it an interesting question ethics-wise.

 

[Moderator1]

You didn't catch it then - don't catch it now. But I could be wrong. I'd think it would have to be entered as it appeared for MOST of its time online.
Warts and all.
I'm not married to this, however, and can be easily swayed.

 

[buckweaver]

It seems like it's defeating the purpose of the Internet's flexible form not to be able to fix a mistake when you catch it. At some point we're going to have to address that.

For the purposes of this type of award, however -- the print writers have to enter a story as it appeared, and I don't see why an online writer shouldn't have to follow the same guidelines.

Because where's the line between fixing a typo and rewriting the fourth graf ... just because you can?

Like Moddy, I can be swayed. But I think you should enter it as-is.

 

[Frank_Ridgeway]

If it were in the section judging, I'd have a problem with changing anything at all. In theory, I'd have no problem with fixing a typo for an entry in a story category because if a different editor had worked the story, or the same editor having a better day, it would have been caught, so why should the writer be punished? But then where do you draw the line? Let's just tweak this lede a little, update this section of the takeout with the benefit of hindsight, and oh, I just thought of a better ending.

 

[SF_Express]

If it were in the section judging, I'd have a problem with changing anything at all. In theory, I'd have no problem with fixing a typo for an entry in a story category because if a different editor had worked the story, or the same editor having a better day, it would have been caught, so why should the writer be punished? But then where do you draw the line? Let's just tweak this lede a little, update this section of the takeout with the benefit of hindsight, and oh, I just thought of a better ending.

For the record, I and my boss both pretty much agree that if it wasn't edited in the course of normal production for that particular column's publication -- I guess in the window of a day or two -- then going back and fixing it when you're looking for contest material is not fair game.

 

[shotglass]

SF, I would agree that at this point, it probably shouldn't be changed.

But if it gets to the point where it IS a separate competition -- Web-based copy only -- you might ask for a ruling from APSE. Because if you all want to play by the same rules, maybe that's an opening you all may want to have.

 

[SF_Express]

Yeah, apparently, whether we get into an APSE contest at all, and in what form, might be discussed at the judging meetings.

 

[Mystery_Meat]

I know in my state, the top smaller paper got in a ****load of trouble when one of their AMEs was caught updating stories after the publication date and entering them in the state press awards. He's out of the business, I believe. But that's a newspaper too.

 

[SF_Express]

I know in my state, the top smaller paper got in a ****load of trouble when one of their AMEs was caught updating stories after the publication date and entering them in the state press awards. He's out of the business, I believe. But that's a newspaper too.

Well, to be sinister about it, because it's the Web only, unless you had an unlikely confluence of events where somebody connected to the judging printed the original column out, or remembered the typo or whatever, and then saw it had been changed, it'd be unlikely that post-editing would be caught. And absent that printout, it's be a matter of one word against another.

So it'd have to be strictly honor system.

 

[Mystery_Meat]

I know in my state, the top smaller paper got in a ****load of trouble when one of their AMEs was caught updating stories after the publication date and entering them in the state press awards. He's out of the business, I believe. But that's a newspaper too.

Well, to be sinister about it, because it's the Web only, unless you had an unlikely confluence of events where somebody connected to the judging printed the original column out, or remembered the typo or whatever, and then saw it had been changed, it'd be unlikely that post-editing would be caught. And absent that printout, it's be a matter of one word against another.

So it'd have to be strictly honor system.

Depending on manpower and time, they could also go to archive.org and do a search on the site on the day the story was published. But I don't know how reliable that is (I've been to it a handful of times and they don't always have the page for the day I'm looking for).

 

[Jam3131]

I know in my state, the top smaller paper got in a ****load of trouble when one of their AMEs was caught updating stories after the publication date and entering them in the state press awards. He's out of the business, I believe. But that's a newspaper too.

Well, to be sinister about it, because it's the Web only, unless you had an unlikely confluence of events where somebody connected to the judging printed the original column out, or remembered the typo or whatever, and then saw it had been changed, it'd be unlikely that post-editing would be caught. And absent that printout, it's be a matter of one word against another.

So it'd have to be strictly honor system.

That's the problem though - and not to be mean to anybody on this board, but do you believe in the honor system when it comes to fellow scribes? I cannot speak from experience, since I have not entered any competitions, but I am sure those that have would love to take another crack at stories - and in this instance, I can totally see people doing that.

Just my opinion.

 

[Eagleboy]

What if you submitted the column, story, etc. and you outlined, in the submission, that there's a typo in the third paragraph? Something that draws the attention to the mistake so that someone, at a later stage, can change "baout" to "about". You don't want it to run in the book, should it be chosen, but of course, you don't want to run the risk of putting on a new ending.

 

[SF_Express]

That's the problem though - and not to be mean to anybody on this board, but do you believe in the honor system when it comes to fellow scribes? I cannot speak from experience, since I have not entered any competitions, but I am sure those that have would love to take another crack at stories - and in this instance, I can totally see people doing that.

Just my opinion.

Well, speaking only of my place, our writers wouldn't have the first knowledge about getting into the database to do anything like that. It would have to be an editor. The writers don't even have that access, not for protection but because they just never have.

 

[jay_christley]

SF - I think there's a lot of merit to this debate.
Such as, how long after the story is too long? For instance, I constantly rely on a past material database to check stuff. For instance, what did some guy say last time he won this race, or what were the exact sequence of events (if I'm a little fuzzy on the history). Because I work at a paper, it doesn't matter if I change a typo or such from a story I have archived on my laptop -- I'd submit a tearsheet if I entered a contest and not what I have on file.
But I would certainly make the correction, if for no other reason than for my own sanity.
So what happens if you write something in February, notice a typo and fix it while doing a little research in May and then want to enter a contest in November? Which edition do you submit?

I think the answer may be edit time stamps that need to be submitted along with the copy. Such as an "originally posted" date, and then a log of any subsequent dates (times) the story is altered.

 

[Jam3131]

SF - I think there's a lot of merit to this debate.
Such as, how long after the story is too long? For instance, I constantly rely on a past material database to check stuff. For instance, what did some guy say last time he won this race, or what were the exact sequence of events (if I'm a little fuzzy on the history). Because I work at a paper, it doesn't matter if I change a typo or such from a story I have archived on my laptop -- I'd submit a tearsheet if I entered a contest and not what I have on file.
But I would certainly make the correction, if for no other reason than for my own sanity.
So what happens if you write something in February, notice a typo and fix it while doing a little research in May and then want to enter a contest in November? Which edition do you submit?

I think the answer may be edit time stamps that need to be submitted along with the copy. Such as an "originally posted" date, and then a log of any subsequent dates (times) the story is altered.

Very logical solution - I would agree with this

 

[taz]

Interesting debate.

A lot of this depends on the type of story we're talking about. If it's a breaking news situation (or live event coverage), you're encouraged to have multiple versions, with updates throughout the day. A cover letter explaining the nature of the story and frequency of updates.

A lot of what we're talking about here is in the context of a feature/column, which IMO, should be limited to the original date of publication. Judges might be forgiving when it comes to a typo, but how far do you take that?

"I'll just tweak this graf a bit."
"I'll catch up with that one source that didn't return my call."
"I really wasn't crazy about that lede, anyway."

 

[Bob Cook]

I know in my state, the top smaller paper got in a ****load of trouble when one of their AMEs was caught updating stories after the publication date and entering them in the state press awards. He's out of the business, I believe. But that's a newspaper too.

Well, to be sinister about it, because it's the Web only, unless you had an unlikely confluence of events where somebody connected to the judging printed the original column out, or remembered the typo or whatever, and then saw it had been changed, it'd be unlikely that post-editing would be caught. And absent that printout, it's be a matter of one word against another.

So it'd have to be strictly honor system.

Wouldn't there be a time-stamp on the piece, though, once you made the changes? If you entered a column on the Steelers' Super Bowl victory, and it was stamped "updated Jan. 8, 2007," that might arouse some suspicion. I know that after one of my pieces is posted, if I notice a typo or need to correct something, I send in my change, and the piece is stamped "updated," with the date and time of reposting to follow.

 

[SF_Express]

Wouldn't there be a time-stamp on the piece, though, once you made the changes? If you entered a column on the Steelers' Super Bowl victory, and it was stamped "updated Jan. 8, 2007," that might arouse some suspicion. I know that after one of my pieces is posted, if I notice a typo or need to correct something, I send in my change, and the piece is stamped "updated," with the date and time of reposting to follow.

No matter how many times we update a story, unless we manually change the time and date, the original one remains. Again, no way to track it.

I think our solution will be, if it comes up, to submit whatever it is we find when we go back looking for contest possibilities, with no updates other than what would have been routinely done were a contest not involved.