Gary Sanchez: Hall of Fame ?

[Earthman]

McCann still has power, but he's a league-average hitter by most measures, and has been since he came to the Yankees. He'll be 33 by opening day next year.

Nearly all catchers, even the great ones, are pretty much washed up by 33 or 34. Carlton Fisk, Jorge Posada and Gabby Hartnett are among the few who bucked that trend.

Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Mike Piazza, Gary Carter, Mickey Cochrane and Bill Dickey — all Hall-of-Famers — were all either no longer above-average offensively or no longer every-day catchers by their 34th birthdays.

Joe Mauer moved from catcher to first base at age 30.

Ivan Rodriguez caught nearly every day until he was almost 40, but had his last great offensive season at 32.

Roy Campanella had his last great year at 33 (he had two bad ones before his career-ending car accident at age 35).

Thurman Munson was essentially a league-average hitter with no power — and had been for almost two years — by the time of his death at age 32.

Russell Martin was great offensively at 31, pretty good at 32, and below average this year at 33.

It's a difficult position physically, even for the great ones.

Pudge II had some help as we learned.
Wondering if Pudge I was ahead of his time in advanced medicine based on production

 

[JC]

Martin is below average offensively for a catcher?

 

[Steak Snabler]

Martin is below average offensively for a catcher?

No, for a major-league baseball player, particularly one who is about to be making $20 million a year.

 

[Steak Snabler]

Pudge II had some help as we learned.
Wondering if Pudge I was ahead of his time in advanced medicine based on production

Even so, the point is he was no longer a great hitter by the time he got to be the age McCann will be next April.

 

[JC]

No, for a major-league baseball player, particularly one who is about to be making $20 million a year.

You have to take position into account.

 

[Earthman]

Even so, the point is he was no longer a great hitter by the time he got to be the age McCann will be next April.

Agreed . Not arguing your point which is a good one. Just making the observation
that Fisk performance at late age off the charts.

 

[Steak Snabler]

You have to take position into account.

OK, but based on OPS-plus he's about 30 percent worse as a hitter at 33 than he was at 31. His Offensive WAR is lower than at any season since 2011. That's a huge drop-off.

He got paid based on his ability to approach if not repeat 2014, and hasn't been nearly that good in any other season of his career.

 

[CD Boogie]

McCann still has power, but he's a league-average hitter by most measures, and has been since he came to the Yankees. He'll be 33 by opening day next year.

Nearly all catchers, even the great ones, are pretty much washed up by 33 or 34. Carlton Fisk, Jorge Posada and Gabby Hartnett are among the few who bucked that trend.

Johnny Bench, Yogi Berra, Mike Piazza, Gary Carter, Mickey Cochrane and Bill Dickey — all Hall-of-Famers — were all either no longer above-average offensively or no longer every-day catchers by their 34th birthdays.

Joe Mauer moved from catcher to first base at age 30.

Ivan Rodriguez caught nearly every day until he was almost 40, but had his last great offensive season at 32.

Roy Campanella had his last great year at 33 (he had two bad ones before his career-ending car accident at age 35).

Thurman Munson was essentially a league-average hitter with no power — and had been for almost two years — by the time of his death at age 32.

Russell Martin was great offensively at 31, pretty good at 32, and below average this year at 33.

It's a difficult position physically, even for the great ones.

Munson was better than a league average hitter his last few years. He hit 308 in 1977 and 297 in 1978. He was hitting 288 when he died. But yeah, his power had definitely evaporated. I'm a Sox fan, but I still think he belongs in the HOF.

 

[Steak Snabler]

Munson was better than a league average hitter his last few years. He hit 308 in 1977 and 297 in 1978. He was hitting 288 when he died. But yeah, his power had definitely evaporated. I'm a Sox fan, but I still think he belongs in the HOF.

First, I said almost two years, which meant 1978 and 1979. He was legitimately great in 1977, but tailed off massively after that.

Munson's OPS-plus in 1978 was 101 (1 percent above league average). His OPS-plus in 1979 was 95 (5 percent below league average).

And again, he had ZERO power by that time (.373 SLG in 1978, .374 in 1979).

Carlton Fisk, Gary Alexander, Darrell Porter, Jim Sundberg and Bob Stinson were all better hitting-catchers in the American League in 1978.

Porter, Brian Downing, Lance Parrish and Charlie Moore were all better in 1979 (Fisk was hurt most of that year).

Munson gets the halo effect because he died, but he was no longer a great player by that time. The idea that he would have done enough to become a Hall of Famer after his death is not rational.

 

[cranberry]

OK, but based on OPS-plus he's about 30 percent worse as a hitter at 33 than he was at 31. His Offensive WAR is lower than at any season since 2011. That's a huge drop-off.

He got paid based on his ability to approach if not repeat 2014, and hasn't been nearly that good in any other season of his career.

He got paid based on his perceived value relative to the other players available to play his position, just like everyone else.

 

[CD Boogie]

First, I said almost two years, which meant 1978 and 1979. He was legitimately great in 1977, but tailed off massively after that.

Munson's OPS-plus in 1978 was 101 (1 percent above league average). His OPS-plus in 1979 was 95 (5 percent below league average).

And again, he had ZERO power by that time (.373 SLG in 1978, .374 in 1979).

Carlton Fisk, Gary Alexander, Darrell Porter, Jim Sundberg and Bob Stinson were all better hitting-catchers in the American League in 1978.

Porter, Brian Downing, Lance Parrish and Charlie Moore were all better in 1979 (Fisk was hurt most of that year).

Munson gets the halo effect because he died, but he was no longer a great player by that time. The idea that he would have done enough to become a Hall of Famer after his death is not rational.

I don't know, man, a catcher who can hit .290? Back then? You're right, his OPS was league average, but that prism didn't exist back then. People looked at BA above all. I think if he was still catching through the 1981 World Series and got to 2000 hits (he finished with 1558) I think he would have made the Hall. The guy was a 7-time AS in 10 full seasons, with an MVP Award and a ROY and three GGs.

How was his catching when he passed?

 

[JC]

We shouldn't be looking at league averages when we are talking about catchers. We need to look at them compared to other catchers. Which makes Martin and McCann's contracts reasonable in this market.

 

[Steak Snabler]

OK fine. There are 14 catchers with 400-plus plate appearances this year.

According to FanGraphs, Martin ranks 9th in WAR and McCann is 12th.

Major League Leaderboards » 2016 » Catchers » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

 

[cranberry]

How was his catching when he passed?

Munson's arm was pretty much shot by then. He had been trying to quicken his release, often dropping down to a three-quarter or side-arm motion. Seemed like a lot of throws tailing off to the second base side.

OK fine. There are 14 catchers with 400-plus plate appearances this year.

According to FanGraphs, Martin ranks 9th in WAR and McCann is 12th.

Major League Leaderboards » 2016 » Catchers » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball

It says a lot that they're both among the group of catchers who have 400 plate appearances.

 

[Earthman]

Munson's arm was pretty much shot by then. He had been trying to quicken his release, often dropping down to a three-quarter or side-arm motion. Seemed like a lot of throws tailing off to the second base side.



It says a lot that they're both among the group of catchers who have 400 plate appearances.

McCann is still a very serviceable catcher with under contract with a reasonable salary. After age 33
Jason Variteck had at least 4 productive years with the Sox and contract wise when adjusted was probably paid around where McCann is now.
It's a good problem for The Yankees to have and their just not going to give him away.

 

[Steak Snabler]

Varitek had the worst offensive year of his career to that point at age 34, bounced back a little bit at 35, and was pretty bad at the plate thereafter.

Jason Varitek Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com