'Fantastic Lies' 30 for 30

[Lugnuts]

Good, good, good. I hope you'll watch.

I'd not been as eager to see this one as I have been some of the others because it was like ho hum I know this story inside and out-- discussed it here at sj for hours on end.

But lemme tell ya-- once you start watching, you won't stop. There are new interviews-- players, parents-- there's new information I was not aware of...

But the story's strength is in the fairness and thoroughness. It really is journalism at its best. It makes you scared for our society but hopeful for the future of journalism, oddly enough.

And I know we have our legal eagles and 'true crime' gurus here-- it's perfect for you.

Here's Variety's review:

TV Review: ESPN’s ‘Fantastic Lies’

Tomorrow night at 9 pm ET. Settle in, put your feet up.

 

[heyabbott]

What was always the 2nd most disturbing ascpect of the story was the way the Duke Adminsitration and scores of professors threw their students to the wolves. a hundred or more of the most educated people in the country who, theoretically, have dedicated their lives to the higher education of young people just completely abandoned any semblance of fairness to exact political points and Advance personal agendas without regard to their responsibilities towards their students.
THe most disturbing aspect was that after it was found that the Duke students were victims and wholly innocent of being anything but young students who play sports, there were no consequences to the individuals who degraded and humiliated their students.

 

[BDC99]

Will definitely be watching. Haven't followed too closely but sounds fascinating.

 

[Lugnuts]

What was always the 2nd most disturbing ascpect of the story was the way the Duke Adminsitration and scores of professors threw their students to the wolves. a hundred or more of the most educated people in the country who, theoretically, have dedicated their lives to the higher education of young people just completely abandoned any semblance of fairness to exact political points and Advance personal agendas without regard to their responsibilities towards their students.
THe most disturbing aspect was that after it was found that the Duke students were victims and wholly innocent of being anything but young students who play sports, there were no consequences to the individuals who degraded and humiliated their students.

That aspect of the story is front and center in this film, but my personal opinion of the players differs from yours.

I've always thought the players were a-holes. Seeing this film certainly didn't change that for me.

But Good Lord, they didn't deserve that.
Also, who these people are today is probably something far different.

 

[Armchair_QB]

What was always the 2nd most disturbing ascpect of the story was the way the Duke Adminsitration and scores of professors threw their students to the wolves. a hundred or more of the most educated people in the country who, theoretically, have dedicated their lives to the higher education of young people just completely abandoned any semblance of fairness to exact political points and Advance personal agendas without regard to their responsibilities towards their students.
THe most disturbing aspect was that after it was found that the Duke students were victims and wholly innocent of being anything but young students who play sports, there were no consequences to the individuals who degraded and humiliated their students.

Unfortunately, people just like them litter upper administration on campuses all over America. We saw it at Missouri and are seeing it other places as well.

 

[heyabbott]

That aspect of the story is front and center in this film, but my personal opinion of the players differs from yours.

I've always thought the players were a-holes. Seeing this film certainly didn't change that for me.

But Good Lord, they didn't deserve that.
Also, who these people are today is probably something far different.

Assholes? Grayson Allen and Christian Laetner could have been lax players?
the people are today who vilified those students apparently haven't changed.

Looking forward to the program

 

[User 4332]

An interesting critique from William Cohan, who wrote the book The Price of Silence on which the documentary is based - or at least they bought the film rights to his book.

Remembering (and Misremembering) the Duke Lacrosse Case

I found it very interesting that while making the rounds to discuss the documentary on some of the local media this week that director Marina Zenovich lamented that Mike Nifong and Richard Broadhead declined to be interviewed and that the state prison would not allow Crystal Mangum to be interviewed. Then I read Cohan's critique and he mentions he gave her hours of his interviews with Nifong and Mangum, none of which made it in.

I'll be really curious to see the final outcome and certainly he's not the first writer to take issue with how his book was translated to film, but I think I'll be a bit more skeptical for having read that first.

 

[Lugnuts]

An interesting critique from William Cohan, who wrote the book The Price of Silence on which the documentary is based - or at least they bought the film rights to his book.

Remembering (and Misremembering) the Duke Lacrosse Case

I found it very interesting that while making the rounds to discuss the documentary on some of the local media this week that director Marina Zenovich lamented that Mike Nifong and Richard Broadhead declined to be interviewed and that the state prison would not allow Crystal Mangum to be interviewed. Then I read Cohan's critique and he mentions he gave her hours of his interviews with Nifong and Mangum, none of which made it in.

I'll be really curious to see the final outcome and certainly he's not the first writer to take issue with how his book was translated to film, but I think I'll be a bit more skeptical for having read that first.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe William Cohan still thinks there might be something to Crystal Mangum's story. Toward the end of this article he writes, "We may never know what happened in that bathroom." .... Such as? There certainly wasn't any evidence that she was raped.

It's possible Zenovich interviewed him, listened to the tapes he provided and decided he just wasn't credible. If that's the case, she may have acted responsibly.

As a filmmaker, you'd have to be brave to depart from a book that your producer spent money to option.

 

[User 4332]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe William Cohan still thinks there might be something to Crystal Mangum's story. Toward the end of this article he writes, "We may never know what happened in that bathroom." .... Such as? There certainly wasn't any evidence that she was raped.

It's possible Zenovich interviewed him, listened to the tapes he provided and decided he just wasn't credible. If that's the case, she may have acted responsibly.

As a filmmaker, you'd have to be brave to depart from a book that your producer spent money to option.

I think he probably does think there is something to Mangum's story, but his book was interesting for its material from Nifong - if nothing else. I also find it hard to believe that in 20+ hours of audio of Nifong there's nothing worth including in the documentary. Nifong's never given any other interviews about the case and didn't say a whole lot during his state bar hearings. It's going to be damn difficult to give honest insight into what he was thinking, if they care to try to do that, rather than the conjecture that is commonly accepted.

He also has a point about the narrative that the players attorneys have pushed for so long. The case is complex, and it doesn't boil down to a craven political decision to pursue the prosecution on the backs of Duke students just to get elected.

 

[Lugnuts]

Interesting thoughts.

I'm gonna watch it again with that in mind and will be looking forward to reading your opinion.

 

[LongTimeListener]

Lugs, sneak preview for us -- any journalists' work (cough cough Selena Roberts) examined in detail?

 

[Albertville]

An interesting critique from William Cohan, who wrote the book The Price of Silence on which the documentary is based - or at least they bought the film rights to his book.

Remembering (and Misremembering) the Duke Lacrosse Case

I found it very interesting that while making the rounds to discuss the documentary on some of the local media this week that director Marina Zenovich lamented that Mike Nifong and Richard Broadhead declined to be interviewed and that the state prison would not allow Crystal Mangum to be interviewed. Then I read Cohan's critique and he mentions he gave her hours of his interviews with Nifong and Mangum, none of which made it in.

I'll be really curious to see the final outcome and certainly he's not the first writer to take issue with how his book was translated to film, but I think I'll be a bit more skeptical for having read that first.

Cohan's book was the subject of some scathing reviews (at Amazon and elsewhere); and likewise from various columnists (Dorothy Rabinowitz and others). Some have judged it ill-written, chock full of misstatements, factual errors, and innuendo. Maybe that was the reason it ultimately wasn't used by the filmmaker?

 

[Albertville]

That aspect of the story is front and center in this film, but my personal opinion of the players differs from yours.

I've always thought the players were a-holes. Seeing this film certainly didn't change that for me.

But Good Lord, they didn't deserve that.
Also, who these people are today is probably something far different.

A-holes? They were accused of stealing a pizza, making too much noise at a party, and suspicion (note: only "suspicion") of throwing water in a water fight.
Meanwhile, groundskeepers said they were respectful and polite, ditto the airline personnel who handled their travel. They mentored kid's teams in Durham
and raised the most money of any team for Katrina relief. They had the most scholastic awards in their division, and 100% graduation rate.

An article in Duke magazine in fall 2005 ("After the Ball") noted that they were mostly unknown and unrecognized on campus (due to the lack of interest
in their sport) and that this was actually beneficial to their studies. (The narrative, however, would have you believe they were BMOC.)

Concurrent with their case, in early 2007. an actual rape of a Duke student took place at an off-campus party thrown by a Duke fraternity. Duke athletes were at that party.
A gun and drugs were found in the house. The actual rapist was released on $50,000 bail (the lacrosse players had to post $400,000 each), and while out
he then raped a second woman. The victim, Katy Rouse, alleged she was hustled off the Duke campus and later sued the Duke administration. The problem
with that story was that it was the reverse of the Duke story (the rapist was black, and Rouse was white), and it would have ruined the narrative. Hence, there were no statements from Duke President Brodhead; no open letters from the faculty; no marches or candlelight vigils; it
went almost entirely unreported. Odd, if the purpose of journalism is to report the news and not to create and sustain a narrative.

 

[Lugnuts]

A-holes? They were accused of stealing a pizza, making too much noise at a party, and suspicion (note: only "suspicion") of throwing water in a water fight.

An article in Duke magazine in fall 2005 ("After the Ball") noted that they were mostly unknown and unrecognized on campus (due to the lack of interest
in their sport) and that this was actually beneficial to their studies. (The narrative, however, would have you believe they were BMOC.)

The "narrative" I don't buy is the players=good guys, the strippers/Nifong=bad guys. What we have is a group of imperfect human beings, with widely varying degrees of **** ups and mitigating circumstances.

Duke Magazine is not necessarily where I'd go for an impartial account, but I'll give you that maybe that's unfair.

It's not the BMOC thing. When you listed the players transgressions, you forgot hired strippers. I don't want to give away too much. Watch the film.

Nothing they did made them deserve what happened. Period. End of story. I feel horribly for them.

As a mother of a boy, this could not be more of a cautionary tale.

 

[Albertville]

Duke Magazine is not necessarily where I'd go for an impartial account, but I'll give you that maybe that's unfair.

Just to note that issue came out a few months before the scandal (ergo, it was not an attempt to defend them).

When you listed the players transgressions, you forgot hired strippers.

OK. Not to stretch this out too far; but remember, some 20 other groups at Duke hired strippers that year, including the Basketball team. (Had
that team been falsely-accused of rape, you can bet Duke would have been in their corner from the get-go, including Brodhead and Coach K.) Duke
later also sponsored the Sex Workers Art Show, which consisted of strippers doing weird acts, permissible only because they threw in some political
lines to make it seem "relevant". No one was admonished for attending that -- indeed, students were encouraged to attend.

As well, the party was compensation for the team having to remain on campus and miss Spring Break. (What were other students doing on Spring Break?)
Many of the attendees -- and that includes two of those later charged -- didn't even know there were going to be strippers until they arrived
and were asked to contribute $20 to their fees. And many were not that eager to attend -- again including two of those later charged. (Note that
they left almost immediately after the "show" broke up.) But detailing that would have hurt the desired narrative.

 

[Donny in his element]

PW2, a Winter Olympics city in France.

 

[Pilot]

Wait, what's wrong with hiring strippers?

 

[Vombatus]

Compensation for missing spring break?

 

[cjericho]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe William Cohan still thinks there might be something to Crystal Mangum's story. Toward the end of this article he writes, "We may never know what happened in that bathroom." .... Such as? There certainly wasn't any evidence that she was raped.

It's possible Zenovich interviewed him, listened to the tapes he provided and decided he just wasn't credible. If that's the case, she may have acted responsibly.

As a filmmaker, you'd have to be brave to depart from a book that your producer spent money to option.

Yeah WTF would that be? Maybe he could tell us.

 

[Vombatus]

Things that I hope they mention:

Pressler's anger management.

Team out of control for years off the field.

Nifong's guitar collection.