Billy Wagner HOF?

[Ilmago]

I like these type of threads, Billy Wagner retired this season and I was wondering if you guys thought he was a Hall of Famer?

Thoughts?

 

[TheSportsPredictor]

Not a chance.

 

[outofplace]

I may not go that far, but I would say it is extremely unlikely. I think a closer needs an almost perfect resume to get in. He has to have the big save total, great peripheral numbers and he has to have come through in the playoffs.

Wagner has the saves. He is fifth all-time with 422, only two behind John Franco (does anybody think he's going to get in?). He has the peripherals with a 2.31 ERA, a 0.998 WHIP and 1,196 strikeouts in 903 innings. To carry an 11.9 strikeout-per-inning ratio would be the best of all time, according to baseballreference.com, if he had 1,000 innings pitched.

But his post-season numbers suck. Wagner is 1-1 with three saves and a 10.03 ERA in 14 career playoff appearances. Given the high standards for a closer getting into the Hall of Fame, that's probably going to keep him out.

 

[shockey]

TSP got it right. NOT. A. CHANCE.

the hall is tough on relievers. i can see where that might loosen up some now that closers are compiling huge save counts, but rightly or wrongly -- i vote for rightly -- closers lacking in post-season experience score many minus points. yeah, it's not necessarily their fault if they're short on post-season appearances/results, but it's in those ultimate pressure situations that closers must show they're of hall of fame muster.

there aren't many already in. only five: gossage, fingers, eckersley are in largely because they had several ultimate saves in world series play. wilhelm was before my time; i'm just guessing he was something as a closing pioneer. the fifth is sutter. i'm not sure why he's in; his numbers are relatively modest. perhaps because he was seen as revoltionary due to his mastery of the split-finger fastball. wasn't he the first or among the first to rely on it?

when i think of wagner, i never think, "oh, yeah, he was the most dominant and successful closer around for several years. eck, fingers, goose fill that bill. to me, wagner is a southpaw lee smith -- lengthy careers, very good compilers, who leave me without the what i'd call enough "big-game saves."

of the current relievers, i'm not sure anyone besides mariano is sure to get in. who else will be considered? the guy in san diego, hoffman? perhaps. but too many voters may think of his numerous, glaring blown saves to give him their vote.

if anyone can change my mind on any of this, please do. i'm primarily going with aging raw memory here.

 

[Piotr Rasputin]

I like these type of threads

No ****?

 

[outofplace]

TSP got it right. NOT. A. CHANCE.

the hall is tough on relievers. i can see where that might loosen up some now that closers are compiling huge save counts, but rightly or wrongly -- i vote for rightly -- closers lacking in post-season experience score many minus points. yeah, it's not necessarily their fault if they're short on post-season appearances/results, but it's in those ultimate pressure situations that closers must show they're of hall of fame muster.

there aren't many already in. only five: gossage, fingers, eckersley are in largely because they had several ultimate saves in world series play. wilhelm was before my time; i'm just guessing he was something as a closing pioneer. the fifth is sutter. i'm not sure why he's in; his numbers are relatively modest. perhaps because he was seen as revoltionary due to his mastery of the split-finger fastball. wasn't he the first or among the first to rely on it?

when i think of wagner, i never think, "oh, yeah, he was the most dominant and successful closer around for several years. eck, fingers, goose fill that bill. to me, wagner is a southpaw lee smith -- lengthy careers, very good compilers, who leave me without the what i'd call enough "big-game saves."

of the current relievers, i'm not sure anyone besides mariano is sure to get in. who else will be considered? the guy in san diego, hoffman? perhaps. but too many voters may think of his numerous, glaring blown saves to give him their vote.

if anyone can change my mind on any of this, please do. i'm primarily going with aging raw memory here.

The only thing I would disagree with is calling Wagner a compiler. He has been a dominant closer in the regular season. I think the playoff failures keep him from any real consideration.

I think Hoffman might get in. He was dominant in his prime and he is the all-time saves leader with nobody but Rivera even close. That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Rivera is the only closer currently active who gets into the Hall of Fame.

 

[93Devil]

But his post-season numbers suck. Wagner is 1-1 with three saves and a 10.03 ERA in 14 career playoff appearances.

No.

End of thread.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Rivera will get in. Hoffman should get in.

I'll be very surprised if any other current closers make it.

 

[HanSenSE]

I still wonder why Lee Smith isn't in.

 

[Guy_Incognito]

I still wonder why Lee Smith isn't in.

He wasn't good enough.

 

[Killick]

Oh, Jesus. What's next? "Jesse Orosco: HOF?"

 

[93Devil]

Didn't Orosco play in four decades?

 

[HeinekenMan]

Jose Canseco deserves consideration, too. He only allowed three runs in his whole career.

 

[Ilmago]

Wagner was/is much more dominant than Hoffman, though. I think the thing that will hurt Wagner is that he will be overshadowed by Rivera, who is the only modern reliever in baseball outside of Gossage who I'd rank ahead of Wagner.

 

[Azrael]

Insufficiently famous.

 

[outofplace]

Wagner was/is much more dominant than Hoffman, though. I think the thing that will hurt Wagner is that he will be overshadowed by Rivera, who is the only modern reliever in baseball outside of Gossage who I'd rank ahead of Wagner.

Wagner struck out more batters, but he was not a better closer than Hoffman in his prime. The problem is that Hoffman hung on and was useful for a long time after his prime, so that is what some people remember. They forget how good he was at his best.

 

[Ilmago]

Wagner struck out more batters, but he was not a better closer than Hoffman in his prime. The problem is that Hoffman hung on and was useful for a long time after his prime, so that is what some people remember. They forget how good he was at his best.

Best 5 ERA+:

Hoffman 265, 226, 198, 190, 179
Wagner 293, 287, 279, 275, 247

Even in their best years, Wagner was a better pitcher than Hoffman.

 

[spnited]

Simple answer: No ****ing way.

 

[HeinekenMan]

Wagner struck out more batters, but he was not a better closer than Hoffman in his prime. The problem is that Hoffman hung on and was useful for a long time after his prime, so that is what some people remember. They forget how good he was at his best.

Best 5 ERA+:

Hoffman 265, 226, 198, 190, 179
Wagner 293, 287, 279, 275, 247

Even in their best years, Wagner was a better pitcher than Hoffman.

I thought it was the Hall of Fame. I didn't realize that it's actually the Hall of Guys with the Best ERA+.

I know performance and stats count for a lot. But don't forget what the Hall is all about. It's really a place to remember the historic figures of baseball. Billy Wagner was a great relief pitcher. But he's not a historic figure. Hoffman is. I would put Curt Flood in the Hall of Fame before I'd put Wagner in the Hall. We don't have to celebrate every talented ballplayer with a spot in the Hall of Fame.

 

[spnited]

How is Hoffman a historic figure?