Beaten by a girl - in the New York Times

[Write-brained]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/17/nyregion/17wrestle.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

Kinda feel sorry for the boy in the lead. Not only did he lose (at least that's how it looks) to a girl wrestler but now it's all over the New York Times.

I think girls should wrestle but it's tough for their male opponents. I never had to wrestle a girl but if I did I imagine I would have lost just cuz I had been conditioned all of my life not to hurt girls.

Anyone here cover girl wrestlers?

 

[Oz]

This isn't near as uncommon as you might think. In Kansas not too long ago, one girl made state all four years. Won some matches when she got there, too. She definitely had the toughness to wrestle.

 

[Starman]

I have absolutely no tolerance whatsoever for this particular whine.

If it crushes your macho-man studly-stud ego to lose to a girl, then don't lose to a girl.


End. Of. Story.

 

[buckweaver]

I have absolutely no tolerance whatsoever for this particular whine.

If it crushes your macho-man studly-stud ego to lose to a girl, then don't lose to a girl.


End. Of. Story.

Ditto. Can't really add to that. :D

 

[Almost_Famous]

I also don't see why girls bother compete with boys. There are girls sports. There are boys sports. This is not a black/white thing.

What happened when a boy went and played field hockey in Boston? He kicked ass and of course the parents wanted him out. So is anyone raising a stink about a girl wanting to be a wrestler? Same deal with girls playing football. What going to happen when guys treat her ... like a guy? Michelle Wie wanting to play with the men is just stupid. Has she even dominated at the women's level?

What's next - is a female going to try out for the NBA? Are we going to see a woman on an MLB team?

I'm no sexist, but it boggles the mind as to why/how this is happening. There are many of outstanding female athletes. Mia Hamm is one of the greatest female soccer players ... of all-time. You never saw her trying to play with the US Men's National team, did you? I just don't see why females have such a hard-on to play with the guys.

Can anyone explain this?

 

[Oz]

A_F, it's happening in part because -- if you would have read the story -- girls wrestling teams are few and far between. Not many out there, so they have to compete with the boys. It's not like soccer and other sports where they have enough girls to field varsity and JV teams with no problems.

And most everyone is fine with that. The girls are treated the same as the guys the moment she beats them.

 

[Almost_Famous]

Solution: School doesn't have a wrestling team? Join a club wrestling team.

Fighting a girl is a no-win situation.
You win, and it means nothing.
You lose, and you lose your balls, too.

 

[buckweaver]

A_F: In addition to Oz's point (that there aren't girls teams in many areas), it's a similar argument to if white players should be able to compete in the Negro Leagues. The majority doesn't get to be the minority on demand.

The thing is, even when girls have their own teams/leagues ... it's NOT "separate but equal" in many cases. Girls often don't get the same facilities, the same support (training, equipment, coaching, etc.), as boys do.

So it's not as simple as "girls have a hard-on to play with the boys" or "girls have girls sports, boys have boys sports." That's denying the reality that exists for many girls who wish to play sports.

 

[Write-brained]

I have absolutely no tolerance whatsoever for this particular whine.

If it crushes your macho-man studly-stud ego to lose to a girl, then don't lose to a girl.


End. Of. Story.

You didn't wrestle in high school did you, Star? (I guess I shouldn't be surprised ... why is it that most sports writers didn't play sports?)

Anyway, Star, it's not that simple. Wrestling isn't just about doing some moves and putting someone on their back, its about inflicting pain and wearing your opponent down ... have you ever had a chin grinding in your shoulder or felt like your kneecap was going to pop out if you didn't stop resisting ...

I wasn't the best wrestler, far from it, but you would really need to have a proper mindset to take on a girl ...

It would probably help a whole lot to have a girl on your own team so you can practice with them .. and then, like the guy in the story said, it will be just like wrestling anyone else ...

 

[Write-brained]

Some of us have a little more experience with the idea and don't think you have to treat a girl differently in sports, whether it's wrestling or anything else.

And what is that experience, Buck, sitting in the bleachers scribbling in your notebook?

 

[Write-brained]

I'm just saying that I would have a problem with it. I wouldn't forfeit my match but I doubt I could go 100-percent mentally ... not to take away from the girls, but I'd estimate that most opponents of girls are probably only going at 70, 80-percent speed (practice speed) ...

 

[Write-brained]

Some of us have a little more experience with the idea and don't think you have to treat a girl differently in sports, whether it's wrestling or anything else.

And what is that experience, Buck, sitting in the bleachers scribbling in your notebook?

Sorry, don't feel like outing myself by posting my resume. ::)

Just because you were a high-school wrestler doesn't make you an expert on high schools, or wrestling, or girls in sports. Nor does it make me one.

Suffice to say, I've played sports. Cool?

you're the one who said you had some sort of experience that made you understand this topic much more than myself ... if you're not going to explain what it is why bring it up?

 

[Starman]

I have absolutely no tolerance whatsoever for this particular whine.

If it crushes your macho-man studly-stud ego to lose to a girl, then don't lose to a girl.


End. Of. Story.

You didn't wrestle in high school did you, Star? (I guess I shouldn't be surprised ... why is it that most sports writers didn't play sports?)

Anyway, Star, it's not that simple. Wrestling isn't just about doing some moves and putting someone on their back, its about inflicting pain and wearing your opponent down ... have you ever had a chin grinding in your shoulder or felt like your kneecap was going to pop out if you didn't stop resisting ...

I wasn't the best wrestler, far from it, but you would really need to have a proper mindset to take on a girl ...

It would probably help a whole lot to have a girl on your own team so you can practice with them .. and then, like the guy in the story said, it will be just like wrestling anyone else ...

When I played sports (if it was a game that counted), I was out to kick anybody's and everybody's ass from buzzer to buzzer.

For the macho-man studly-studs whose fragile psyches are shattered by losing to girls, the solution is simple: beat them so emphatically and lightning-fast, they wonder what the hell they were ever thinking getting on the mat with you.

If you can't do that, then I guess you don't have much right to get upset about it.

The flipside of this, of course, is girls who want to compete in contact sports with boys (i.e. wrestling and football, most often), who then get all upset (more often, their parents do) when their little princesses are smacked around like everyone else on the team.

A few years ago, I covered a school where a girl went out for football. The coach was an old-school guy who never allowed anyone on the team to be just a kicker -- they had to play a field position too (even if they weren't very good at it). That included some exchange-student soccer players from Mozambique -- if they wanted to come out as kickers, the coach was OK with it, but they had to at least try to play DB or WR or some actual position.

The girl came out and announced, "I am a kicker." Old Coach said, "fine, but you will also run some practice reps at DB." The girl's parents went to the school board in a huge huff, because Muffy had been knocked down a few times, and THEY thought she was going to be a kicker and never get hit, and now they were insisting on it.

 

[Write-brained]

I'm just saying that I would have a problem with it. I wouldn't forfeit my match but I doubt I could go 100-percent mentally ... not to take away from the girls, but I'd estimate that most opponents of girls are probably only going at 70, 80-percent speed (practice speed) ...

But here's my point: your mind-set is in your own head.

If it's tough for you to wrap your mind around the concept that a girl is waiting on the other side, that a girl can -- perish the thought! -- actually be good enough to beat you, that a girl at 100 percent is better than you at 70 percent, or that you can only put 70 percent of yourself into a match against a girl ... then that's on you and you alone.

Your original post said you "felt sorry" for the boy and that you've been "conditioned not to hurt girls." Well, if you can't differentiate between playing sports against a female athlete and domestic violence against a female, then that's on you.

There's nothing to feel sorry about -- the dude got beat.

... By a girl.

Girls can be very good wrestlers, never said they couldn't, never said they shouldn't wrestle. It's just not easy for a guy to go 100 percent against one.

What you're missing and failing to address is wrestling isn't pickup basketball. It's not tennis. It's a full contact sport. I've separated shoulders and broken fingers ... mine and my opponents ... you guys talk tough but we're not talking about your co-ed softball league.

 

[Oz]

I'm just saying that I would have a problem with it. I wouldn't forfeit my match but I doubt I could go 100-percent mentally ... not to take away from the girls, but I'd estimate that most opponents of girls are probably only going at 70, 80-percent speed (practice speed) ...

Then you wouldn't deserve to win in the first place, because she showed more mettle than you.

 

[Write-brained]

No wonder you guys have 7,000-plus posts ... you spend all day brow-beating someone until they see it your way ...

But it's not going to happen. Do other people feel the same way as me? Obviously no. I was just saying my opinion based on my personal experience and I don't think I deserve to have a couple of stat geeks insulting me because they once wrote about a match or played intramural basketball in school. When I wrestled in high school I had a friend beat a girl in the 112 weight class ... he hated every minute of it. I would too.

 

[Write-brained]

No wonder you guys have 7,000-plus posts ... you spend all day brow-beating someone until they see it your way ...

But it's not going to happen. Do other people feel the same way as me? Obviously no. I was just saying my opinion based on my personal experience and I don't think I deserve to have a couple of stat geeks insulting me because they once wrote about a match or played intramural basketball in school. When I wrestled in high school I had a friend beat a girl in the 112 weight class ... he hated every minute of it. I would too.

We never played sports ... we have 7K brow-beating posts ... we're stat geeks ... we don't know wrestling ... we're scribbling in our notebooks ...

Damn, you're not helping your case here. Care to refute any of the actual arguments made instead of throwing out cheap shots? ::)

I don't see you refuting any of my "cheap shots" ... btw, just cuz they're true doesn't make them cheap ...

The only argument you're presenting is this: if a woman voluntarily takes a spot on the mat than whoop her ass ... got it. Understood.

My answer to that is it's easier said than done because wrestling is a contact sport in which I know I can cause a lot of pain and I, personallly, would have some internal conflict with that.

But if you want to ever wrestle, just let me know.

 

[Oz]

My answer to that is it's easier said than done because wrestling is a contact sport in which I know I can cause a lot of pain and I, personallly, would have some internal conflict with that.

Except the other person signed up for it the same as you, right?

 

[Write-brained]

My answer to that is it's easier said than done because wrestling is a contact sport in which I know I can cause a lot of pain and I, personallly, would have some internal conflict with that.

Except the other person signed up for it the same as you, right?

I understand that. But it doesn't necessarily mean she belongs on the same mat as me. Weight class isn't a fair indicator of skill and a lot of JV wrestlers will wrestle varsity for a variety of reasons ... especially at the extreme heavy or light weight classes.

I wouldn't feel good about injuring a female opponent. Guys? Sure. It's just the way I was raised. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Even with that said, I'll repeat that I do think girls should be allowed to wrestle against guys out of fairness ... it's just not black and white.

 

[Bruhman]

Having never wrestled boxed, or played football against females, I don't know if I'd have difficulty inflicting pain on them.

But there are 2-3 women who play hoops with us at the Y sometmes, and I have no problem serving them up or swatting them down.

I'd like to think my competitive nature would outweigh my sexual nature in those contact sports, and I'd view females merely as opponents. I believe they'd appreciate that "enlightened" approach.