A Sorkin-related question, mostly for the ladies

[HejiraHenry]

I was thinking about West Wing and Studio 60 today and I was a little troubled by something.

Near the end of the WW's run, C.J. is torn about what to do – return to the White House or go to work for the billionaire.

In the end, it took nudging from her reporter manfriend (Danny, was it?) to help her decide what to do.

In Studio 60, the female head of the network really isn't projecting a very professional image, topped off by getting pregnant in a one-night stand and then, against all logic, getting romantically involved with one of her employees. The recovering drug addict, no less.

I'm not even going near Harriet. The real-life lesbian playing the gay-conflicted Christian makes my brain hurt.

Maybe there's a third example of something along this same line from SportsNight. I forget, and I never really watched it that carefully.

Anybody wonder if Aaron Sorkin can really write the strong, self-sufficient female character?

 

[Duane Postum]

I don't wonder. He can't.

 

[Just_An_SID]

All of Sorkin's characters -- male and female -- have the illusion of being self-sufficient but all desperately need something or have a major flaw. Jed Bartlett may be the strongest character that Sorkin had in any show yet he had M.S.

 

[Freelance Hack]

All of the SportsNight characters had flaws or vulnerabilities. Even Isaac, who I'd argue was a stronger character than Bartlet, suffered a stroke.

 

[Cadet]

SportsNight had Dana kicking ass 80% of the time, and completely losing her mind over Casey the other 20%. It was kind of pathetic to watch.

But all the guys did have vulnerabilities... theirs just weren't completely hinged on the opposite sex.

 

[Lugnuts]

CJ was a strong female character.

When I'm making a career decision, the first person whose opinion I ask is Mr. Lugs.

When you make a major life decision, who's the first person you turn to?

It doesn't make you weak or insufficient.

 

[zeke12]

Henry --

Sorkin doesn't write any strong, self-sufficient characters.

Which is OK, since his drama generally comes from human frailty rather than deus ex machina.

 

[RedCanuck]

In Sports Night, I thought Dana's sidekick Natalie was a fairly strong female character. Am I missing something there?

 

[alleyallen]

This is an interesting question you pose...

I never really saw Sports Night so I can't speak to that, but it seems all characters of Sorkin tend to be needy and even a bit vulnerable, despite how strong and self-sufficient they might otherwise bit. However, among the females, Abby on West Wing was one of the strongest female characters I've known. Strong in spirit, conviction and determination.

 

[zeke12]

She had her weak moments, too.

After she lost her medical license, and right after the daughter got kidnapped are two that spring immediately to mind.

As I said, Sorkin revels in people's insecurities and strengths. It's a way to humanize characters.

Nothing more, IMHO.

 

[Double Down]

In search of smart, confident, Sorkin-penned females, I would offer up Amy Gardner (Mary Louise Parker) as exhibit A. She always knew what she wanted, professionally and personally, and went after it. Personally, I always felt like Amy should have ended up with Josh, not Donna. I never once bought into the whole Josh-Donna thing.

However, the lovely, smart and confident Lugnuts pointed out something to me in a previous WW thread that poked a few holes in my Amy Gardner balloon. Donna, with all her insecurities, was the far more realistic character. Lugs said something to the effect of, I like Donna because I see some of myself in her. For all my confidence, ambition and conviction, I still have moments of self doubt. That's reality.

Amy Gardner was a fantasy. She always looked hot, always knew it, and she spoke with sass and boldness and never once backed down anyone, especially a man. She didn't need Josh to fulfill her as a person, and was as whip-smart as any of the boys, if not smarter.

But in the end -- maybe because Billy Crudup got Mary Louise Parker preggers in real life, then left her for Claire Danes, forcing Parker to be mostly written out of the show -- Josh ended up with Donna, not Amy. I don't know if that says anything about Sorkin, Thomas Schalame or John Wells, but Amy definitely fits the bill of your original question of whether he can write a strong, self-sufficient character with two X chromosomes.

 

[Killick]

So where does Demi Moore's character in 'A Few Good Men' fall into this spectrum? That's a Sorkin product, too. Outranks Danny, seems self-sufficient, but spends the latter half of the film demuring to Tom Cruise's character. Sydney (Annette Benning) in 'The American President' seems to fit the self-sufficient mold. Strong, smart. Interesting conversation. Kudos, HH.

 

[alleyallen]

So where does Demi Moore's character in 'A Few Good Men' fall into this spectrum? That's a Sorkin product, too. Outranks Danny, seems self-sufficient, but spends the latter half of the film demuring to Tom Cruise's character. Sydney (Annette Benning) in 'The American President' seems to fit the self-sufficient mold. Strong, smart. Interesting conversation. Kudos, HH.

They downplayed Demi's character way too much in AFGM. You're right...she was tough and independent and didn't need to be secondary to Grand Poobah Cruise.

 

[OTD]

So where does Demi Moore's character in 'A Few Good Men' fall into this spectrum? That's a Sorkin product, too. Outranks Danny, seems self-sufficient, but spends the latter half of the film demuring to Tom Cruise's character. Sydney (Annette Benning) in 'The American President' seems to fit the self-sufficient mold. Strong, smart. Interesting conversation. Kudos, HH.

They downplayed Demi's character way too much in AFGM. You're right...she was tough and independent and didn't need to be secondary to Grand Poobah Cruise.

I never saw the play on which the movie was based. I wonder if the female character there (and I don't know who played either lead) was as secondary; that is, did they have to make Moore's character that way to avoid pissing off Cruise?

 

[Double Down]

Did Sorkin write a romance plot line between Kaffee and Galloway that was downplayed/eliminated in the movie?

 

[alleyallen]

Did Sorkin write a romance plot line between Kaffee and Galloway that was downplayed/eliminated in the movie?

God I hope so. My estimation of Demi would have fallen several notches if they had hooked up.

 

[HejiraHenry]

This is an interesting conversation. And those of you who have made this point – that all of Sokin's characters are flawed in some fashion – is a good one.

 

[outofplace]

All of the SportsNight characters had flaws or vulnerabilities. Even Isaac, who I'd argue was a stronger character than Bartlet, suffered a stroke.

I don't think Isaac's stroke was a part of Sorkin's planning for the character. Robert Guillaume had a stroke, on the set of the show if IMDB is to be believed, and it was written into the show.

 

[Lugnuts]

I never saw the play on which the movie was based. I wonder if the female character there (and I don't know who played either lead) was as secondary; that is, did they have to make Moore's character that way to avoid pissing off Cruise?

I saw the play a few years before the movie came out, and the role of the Demi Moore character was not even a woman.

Thanks for the kind words, DD.

I still don't think CJ asking Danny for help/advice is a "flaw."

 

[shockey]

I still don't think CJ asking Danny for help/advice is a "flaw."

or a sign of weakness.