Yankee Fans: Morons

[Baron Scicluna]

As I've said before, Jeter has pulled off the impossible. He's a deserved first-ballot Hall-of-Famer, who is colossally overrated at the same time.

Underrated, if anything. Zero MVPs, but should've won in 1999, 2006, and 2009. Got beat by IRod, Morneau, and Mauer. Combine their careers (statistically, not even counting postseason heroics) and they *maybe* stack up to what the Captain has accomplished.

Top 5 greatest players to never win an MVP (roiders like Piazza and Manny don't qualify):

1) Jeter
2) Tony Gwynn
3) Al Kaline
4) Dave Winfield
5) Eddie Murray

Mel Ott (highest ever in the vote was 3rd).

Eddie Matthews (finished second twice)

 

[MankyJimy]

As I've said before, Jeter has pulled off the impossible. He's a deserved first-ballot Hall-of-Famer, who is colossally overrated at the same time.

Underrated, if anything. Zero MVPs, but should've won in 1999, 2006, and 2009. Got beat by IRod, Morneau, and Mauer. Combine their careers (statistically, not even counting postseason heroics) and they *maybe* stack up to what the Captain has accomplished.

Top 5 greatest players to never win an MVP (roiders like Piazza and Manny don't qualify):

1) Jeter
2) Tony Gwynn
3) Al Kaline
4) Dave Winfield
5) Eddie Murray

Mel Ott (highest ever in the vote was 3rd).

Eddie Matthews (finished second twice)

Good call, totally overlooked both of them. Slot Mathews at #2 and Ott #3 behind Jeter on that list.

 

[MrHavercamp]

MankyJimy may be over the top in his love of Jeter, but the people arguing with him are just as bad the other way. To call a surefire first-ballot Hall of Famer "vastly overrated," as OOP did, is simply comical. And Rhody dismissively talks about how Jeter will be remembered. Uh, he'll be remembered as one of the handful of greatest shortstops in the history of the game. Don't think so? Try starting a list and see how long it takes you to get to Jeter, even if you think he's "vastly overrated." I understand that there's some deification of Jeter because he plays for the Yankees (and I hate the Yankees), but the hate on this site for him is hard to understand.

 

[outofplace]

MankyJimy may be over the top in his love of Jeter, but the people arguing with him are just as bad the other way. To call a surefire first-ballot Hall of Famer "vastly overrated," as OOP did, is simply comical. And Rhody dismissively talks about how Jeter will be remembered. Uh, he'll be remembered as one of the handful of greatest shortstops in the history of the game. Don't think so? Try starting a list and see how long it takes you to get to Jeter, even if you think he's "vastly overrated." I understand that there's some deification of Jeter because he plays for the Yankees (and I hate the Yankees), but the hate on this site for him is hard to understand.

Anybody who puts Jeter up with Babe Ruth is vastly overrating him. Those people, and Manky, are the only ones being ridiculous. If you don't see that, you are beyond help.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

What team did Reggie go into Cooperstown as? Even as a Bay Area guy, I always think of him as a Yankee, but that has more to do with my age than anything. My first baseball memories were those Yankees-Royals ALCS matchups and the Yankee-Dodgers World Series. I'm too young to remember his first stint in Oakland.

 

[MankyJimy]

What team did Reggie go into Cooperstown as? Even as a Bay Area guy, I always think of him as a Yankee, but that has more to do with my age than anything. My first baseball memories were those Yankees-Royals ALCS matchups and the Yankee-Dodgers World Series. I'm too young to remember his first stint in Oakland.

Reggie went in as a Yankee. I agree most people seem to remember him as a Yankee although his best years were in Oakland.

 

[Mizzougrad96]

Yeah, I can't fault him for that. His best years might have been in Oakland, but his most memorable moments were with the Yankees.

 

[MankyJimy]

Greatest Shortstop of All Time:

1) Honus Wagner (he will probably be #1 for eternity, the only one that could have knocked him off is ARod had stayed at SS and avoided the PED taint)
2) Cal Ripken Jr.
3) Derek Jeter
4) Alex Rodriguez (he will have played more games at 3B by the time his career ends, but his value at SS from 1996-2003 is enough to put him on this list)
5) Ernie Banks (like ARod, ended up playing more games elsewhere but his best years were at shortstop)
6) Ozzie Smith
7) Arky Vaughan
8) Luke Appling
9) Pee Wee Reese
10) Alan Trammell

 

[sgreenwell]

Greatest Shortstop of All Time:

1) Honus Wagner (he will probably be #1 for eternity, the only one that could have knocked him off is ARod had stayed at SS and avoided the PED taint)
2) Cal Ripken Jr.
3) Derek Jeter
4) Alex Rodriguez (he will have played more games at 3B by the time his career ends, but his value at SS from 1996-2003 is enough to put him on this list)
5) Ernie Banks (like ARod, ended up playing more games elsewhere but his best years were at shortstop)
6) Ozzie Smith
7) Arky Vaughan
8) Luke Appling
9) Pee Wee Reese
10) Alan Trammell

Without devoting a lot of time to the issue, this list feels pretty correct to me. The offensive threshold is pretty low at SS. Was Lou Bourdeau a SS primarily?

 

[MankyJimy]

Greatest Shortstop of All Time:

1) Honus Wagner (he will probably be #1 for eternity, the only one that could have knocked him off is ARod had stayed at SS and avoided the PED taint)
2) Cal Ripken Jr.
3) Derek Jeter
4) Alex Rodriguez (he will have played more games at 3B by the time his career ends, but his value at SS from 1996-2003 is enough to put him on this list)
5) Ernie Banks (like ARod, ended up playing more games elsewhere but his best years were at shortstop)
6) Ozzie Smith
7) Arky Vaughan
8) Luke Appling
9) Pee Wee Reese
10) Alan Trammell

Without devoting a lot of time to the issue, this list feels pretty correct to me. The offensive threshold is pretty low at SS. Was Lou Bourdeau a SS primarily?

Yes, he played over 90% of his games at SS. Probably slightly better offensive player than Trammell, but Trammell also played exactly 600 more games at SS. I think you also have to consider that some of Boudreau's best years came during WWII playing against weaker competition (Boudreau was classified 4-F due to an arthritic condition in his ankles).

Extending the list further:

11) Joe Cronin
12) Barry Larkin
13) Lou Boudreau
14) Luis Aparicio
15) Phil Rizzuto

 

[secretariat]

Larkin belongs above Trammell. Better hitter, better glove, a lot more steals and an MVP.

 

[MankyJimy]

Larkin belongs above Trammell. Better hitter, better glove, a lot more steals and an MVP.

OK, I can agree with you there. I didn't spend a lot of time researching this list, in my mind I knew Larkin was a better player when he was on the field but I thought Trammell played quite a few more games. Turns out it was only 100 more or so.

 

[MrHavercamp]

Barry Larkin should be higher than Allen Trammell. Larkin's going to end up in the Hall of Fame: Trammell will not. Robin Yount should be somewhere in the Top 10 or so even if he didn't play his whole career at short. He won an MVP at position on the way to 3,000 hits and Cooperstown.

I'd be interested to hear where the people who think Jeter's overrated -- at least in relation to Babe Ruth :) -- would place him on the list of shortstops.

 

[old_tony]

Without going into all the back-and-forths on how over-rated Jeter is (lots, but he's still damn good) the first thought I had when i read the opening post was how these polls are sofa king (sound it out) useless. Reminds me of the poll of Packer fans after the 1989 season that rated Lindy Infante as the greatest Packers coach of all-time.

And Yount belongs on that list.

 

[MankyJimy]

Without going into all the back-and-forths on how over-rated Jeter is (lots, but he's still damn good) the first thought I had when i read the opening post was how these polls are sofa king (sound it out) useless. Reminds me of the poll of Packer fans after the 1989 season that rated Lindy Infante as the greatest Packers coach of all-time.

And Yount belongs on that list.

I would probably have Yount just outside the top 15 SS of all time. If I remember right, didn't he have a shoulder problem that prevented him from making the throws at SS? Since he was unable to play the position after 1984, I'm only crediting him with his actual seasons played at SS (I give ARod partial credit for at least 2004-2007, since it seems pretty likely that he could have remained at short a few years longer). To be consistent, I should also move Banks down the list since physical problems also forced him to change positions mid career. I will probably post a 'final' ranking soon.

 

[Trouser_Buddah]

Murray should have won at least one, maybe two MVPs. He finished in the top five of MVP voting for five straight years. I wonder how many have done that. He definitely should have won over Ripken in 1983 and probably should have beaten Yount in 1982.

This was a patently absurd argument.

Yount beat Murray in every major statistical category outside of home runs (32-29) and on-base percentage (.391-.379) and LED THE LEAGUE in slugging (.578), OPS (.957) and OPS+ (166) as a shortstop. Yount was also mere percentage points away from the batting title that season (.331), finishing just behind Willie Wilson, who sat the final game of the year.

Oh, and Yount won a Gold Glove that year as well (as Murray did at 1B) as the Brewers beat the Orioles for the AL East title.

 

[MrHavercamp]

Yount played nearly 1,500 games at SS, more than both A-Rod and Banks did. That's also roughly the same number Vaughn and Boudreau played there in their careers. So it's more than fair to put Yount up there with the others. He's certainly not outside the Top 15.

 

[MankyJimy]

Yount played nearly 1,500 games at SS, more than both A-Rod and Banks did. That's also roughly the same number Vaughn and Boudreau played there in their careers. So it's more than fair to put Yount up there with the others. He's certainly not outside the Top 15.

Fair enough, I will move him up when I update the ranking. Interestingly, none of the people harping about Jeter being overrated have challenged my ranking of him at #3 all time.

 

[old_tony]

Murray should have won at least one, maybe two MVPs. He finished in the top five of MVP voting for five straight years. I wonder how many have done that. He definitely should have won over Ripken in 1983 and probably should have beaten Yount in 1982.

This was a patently absurd argument.

Yount beat Murray in every major statistical category outside of home runs (32-29) and on-base percentage (.391-.379) and LED THE LEAGUE in slugging (.578), OPS (.957) and OPS+ (166) as a shortstop. Yount was also mere percentage points away from the batting title that season (.331), finishing just behind Willie Wilson, who sat the final game of the year.

Oh, and Yount won a Gold Glove that year as well (as Murray did at 1B) as the Brewers beat the Orioles for the AL East title.

Let's also remember Yount hit two homers and I think a triple in the final game of the season as the Brewers beat the Orioles to win the division by a game. That game right there cinches it.

 

[outofplace]

Yount played nearly 1,500 games at SS, more than both A-Rod and Banks did. That's also roughly the same number Vaughn and Boudreau played there in their careers. So it's more than fair to put Yount up there with the others. He's certainly not outside the Top 15.

Fair enough, I will move him up when I update the ranking. Interestingly, none of the people harping about Jeter being overrated have challenged my ranking of him at #3 all time.

Perhaps because nobody is saying he hasn't been a great player, just that he has no business being talked about with guys like Ruth and Gehrig.