Which conference will lay a turd in the NCAA tournament this year?

[zagoshe]

Pac-10 about to be down to three two teams.

Fixed.....

 

[Beaker]

So, final conference count for the Sweet 16:

Big East-5
Big 12-3
Big 10-2
ACC-2
And one each from the Pac-10, WCC, A-10, and C-USA.

 

[zagoshe]

So, final conference count for the Sweet 16:

Big East-5
Big 12-3
Big 10-2
ACC-2
And one each from the Pac-10, WCC, A-10, and C-USA.

Which once again illustrates why all of the whining about the teams from "cinderella" conferences being left out is tiresome in many ways - -the bottom line is the Sweet 16 is comprised of 13 teams from the power conferences and the three non-power conferences represtented are represented by three programs -- Gonzaga, Xavier and Memphis -- which have proven over the past five years they are far different than the rest of the teams in the conferences they represent.

The best basketball is played in the power conferences and that's why they get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to bubble teams.

 

[Oz]

Which once again illustrates why all of the whining about the teams from "cinderella" conferences being left out is tiresome in many ways - -the bottom line is the Sweet 16 is comprised of 13 teams from the power conferences and the three non-power conferences represtented are represented by three programs -- Gonzaga, Xavier and Memphis -- which have proven over the past five years they are far different than the rest of the teams in the conferences they represent.

The best basketball is played in the power conferences and that's why they get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to bubble teams.

Nevermind Davidson (Elite Eight) and Western Kentucky (Sweet 16) a year ago.

Or Butler, UNLV and Southern Illinois (Sweet 16) two years ago.

Or George Mason (Final Four), Wichita State and Bradley (Sweet 16) three years ago.

All of that is not to mention anything Memphis, Gonzaga or Xavier have done in recent years, which is more than some might think.

 

[Michael_ Gee]

I don't believe in conferences. I believe in teams. Xavier, to take a random example, would be competitive in any conference. But it is hardly uber-dominant in the A-10. I think Siena demonstrated it would have been competitive in any conference. Any statement beyond that, would I think have to wait for the results of actual competition.

 

[zagoshe]

Which once again illustrates why all of the whining about the teams from "cinderella" conferences being left out is tiresome in many ways - -the bottom line is the Sweet 16 is comprised of 13 teams from the power conferences and the three non-power conferences represtented are represented by three programs -- Gonzaga, Xavier and Memphis -- which have proven over the past five years they are far different than the rest of the teams in the conferences they represent.

The best basketball is played in the power conferences and that's why they get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to bubble teams.

Nevermind Davidson (Elite Eight) and Western Kentucky (Sweet 16) a year ago.

Or Butler, UNLV and Southern Illinois (Sweet 16) two years ago.

Or George Mason (Final Four), Wichita State and Bradley (Sweet 16) three years ago.

All of that is not to mention anything Memphis, Gonzaga or Xavier have done in recent years, which is more than some might think.

OZ -- Do me a favor.

Go back over the last 20 years and figure out how many of the 80 teams who made the Final Four are not in the six major conferences. Then do the same excercise and figure out how many of the 160 teams in the Elite Eight fit that description and hell even go to 320 teams who have made the Sweet 16 -- -

And I'd be willing to bet that if you take Xavier, Memphis, Louisville (who was conference USA for a while) and Gonzaga - teams I have already said are exceptions because they play at a much higher level than the rest of the teams in their conferences -- out of the mix, you'll find that very few of these teams actually advance that far as compared to the power conferences.

That's because they aren't as good and that is why it is not unfair when you weigh a team like Wisconsin against a team like San Diego State, the benefit of the doubt should almost always go to the power conference team.

Nobody is saying there aren't exceptions and there aren't surprising runs made by a George Mason (find another one in the last 20 years) -- in general, however, the numbers do not lie.

 

[zagoshe]

I don't believe in conferences. I believe in teams. Xavier, to take a random example, would be competitive in any conference. But it is hardly uber-dominant in the A-10. I think Siena demonstrated it would have been competitive in any conference. Any statement beyond that, would I think have to wait for the results of actual competition.

Really?

That's a little ridiculous -- if Siena was in the Big East, they'd have not finished in the top half and would have struggled to be in the NIT. It is one thing to play tough on one day in the NCAA Tournament with everything on the line.

It is another thing to play 18 games, night in and night out, against Big East competition.

 

[Beaker]

I don't believe in conferences. I believe in teams. Xavier, to take a random example, would be competitive in any conference. But it is hardly uber-dominant in the A-10. I think Siena demonstrated it would have been competitive in any conference. Any statement beyond that, would I think have to wait for the results of actual competition.

Really?

That's a little ridiculous -- if Siena was in the Big East, they'd have not finished in the top half and would have struggled to be in the NIT. It is one thing to play tough on one day in the NCAA Tournament with everything on the line.

It is another thing to play 18 games, night in and night out, against Big East competition.

If being "competitive" simply means being in games, then yeah, I'd guess they'd qualify, but yeah, I don't think they'd finish any higher than about eighth in the Big East.

 

[Michael_ Gee]

Zag, "Competitive" isn't a synonym for "Big winner." But there's less evidence to support your statement then there is for mine. We saw Siena beat Ohio State and give Louisville a hard time in as close to home games for those teams as the tourney allows. All you have is, frankly, sez me. Not good enough.
Beaker, we cannot say that. For one thing, we don't know, and if they have their way we'll never know, how Big East schools would do in Siena's gym.
How do you think Siena would have done in the SEC?

 

[mustangj17]

Alright, here is are turd laying stats.

Sixteen teams left from the following divisions.

ACC - 2 Teams remaining
BIG EAST - 5 teams remaining
Big Ten - 2 teams remaining
A-10 - 1 team remaining
Big 12 - 3 teams remaining
PAC 10 - 1 team remaining
C-usa - 1 team remaining
WCC - 1 team remaining
sec - 0 teams remaining

Sec is the only BCS conference not represented in the Sweet 16, Pac-10 is down to one team and it was the worst team they let in.

ACC/Big Ten have taken some lumps, but they each have their top 2 teams left, Big East is strong. The other three teams are the best from their respective conferences. So I guess if we have to talk about a laying a turd it would have to go in this order.

SEC - only because they didn't get one team into the sweet 16, even though no one expected them to.
PAC-10
BIG TEN/ACC
BIG 12

 

[zagoshe]

Zag, "Competitive" isn't a synonym for "Big winner." But there's less evidence to support your statement then there is for mine. We saw Siena beat Ohio State and give Louisville a hard time in as close to home games for those teams as the tourney allows. All you have is, frankly, sez me. Not good enough.
Beaker, we cannot say that. For one thing, we don't know, and if they have their way we'll never know, how Big East schools would do in Siena's gym.
How do you think Siena would have done in the SEC?

Competitive means finishing .500 I would hope and unfortunatley, no there is not more evidence for your argument in fact there is less considering....

Siena played six teams from power conferences -- Louisville, Ohio State, Kansas, Pitt, Oklahoma State and Tennessee -- and in those games they went 1-5 and that is probably a good snapshot of what they'd do if night in and night out they had to, for 18 games, played in the Big East -- meaning, they wouldn't be in the NCAA Tournament right now.

So once again, it is clear -- based on their own record -- that they would not be competitive in the Big East.

 

[Oz]

OZ -- Do me a favor.

Go back over the last 20 years and figure out how many of the 80 teams who made the Final Four are not in the six major conferences. Then do the same excercise and figure out how many of the 160 teams in the Elite Eight fit that description and hell even go to 320 teams who have made the Sweet 16 -- -

And I'd be willing to bet that if you take Xavier, Memphis, Louisville (who was conference USA for a while) and Gonzaga - teams I have already said are exceptions because they play at a much higher level than the rest of the teams in their conferences -- out of the mix, you'll find that very few of these teams actually advance that far as compared to the power conferences.

That's because they aren't as good and that is why it is not unfair when you weigh a team like Wisconsin against a team like San Diego State, the benefit of the doubt should almost always go to the power conference team.

Nobody is saying there aren't exceptions and there aren't surprising runs made by a George Mason (find another one in the last 20 years) -- in general, however, the numbers do not lie.

Numbers don't lie. Neither do tournament results, which show that good teams from smaller conferences can and do make the Sweet 16 if given the chance. I have no doubt St. Mary's would have beaten Utah and Cleveland State to make the Sweet 16, like Arizona just did. And neither likely would have made the Final Four or won a championship.

 

[top_dog]

"If given the chance"

Only four at-large bids to non-power conference schools didn't allow for much of a chance for anyone to break into the Sweet 16.

 

[KP]

Zag, "Competitive" isn't a synonym for "Big winner." But there's less evidence to support your statement then there is for mine. We saw Siena beat Ohio State and give Louisville a hard time in as close to home games for those teams as the tourney allows. All you have is, frankly, sez me. Not good enough.
Beaker, we cannot say that. For one thing, we don't know, and if they have their way we'll never know, how Big East schools would do in Siena's gym.
How do you think Siena would have done in the SEC?

Competitive means finishing .500 I would hope and unfortunatley, no there is not more evidence for your argument in fact there is less considering....

Siena played six teams from power conferences -- Louisville, Ohio State, Kansas, Pitt, Oklahoma State and Tennessee -- and in those games they went 1-5 and that is probably a good snapshot of what they'd do if night in and night out they had to, for 18 games, played in the Big East -- meaning, they wouldn't be in the NCAA Tournament right now.

So once again, it is clear -- based on their own record -- that they would not be competitive in the Big East.

What was Siena's home record against those six teams?

 

[Armchair_QB]

Really don't want to hear ACC fans dissing the Big 10 this week.

 

[Oz]

Competitive means finishing .500 I would hope and unfortunatley, no there is not more evidence for your argument in fact there is less considering....

Siena played six teams from power conferences -- Louisville, Ohio State, Kansas, Pitt, Oklahoma State and Tennessee -- and in those games they went 1-5 and that is probably a good snapshot of what they'd do if night in and night out they had to, for 18 games, played in the Big East -- meaning, they wouldn't be in the NCAA Tournament right now.

So once again, it is clear -- based on their own record -- that they would not be competitive in the Big East.

What was Siena's home record against those six teams?

Exactly. And while still a "neutral" court, Dayton was more like a home game for Ohio State. A seven-point loss at Kansas, a 13-point loss at Pitt -- if Siena got those teams at home, who knows what the outcome is. Might be the same, a loss, but it certainly wouldn't be easy.

 

[Beaker]

Really don't want to hear ACC fans dissing the Big 10 this week.

Agreed.

 

[JayFarrar]

Historical context means little with the NBA jacking around when people can get drafted.
Power conference teams generally have the guys who are now going to be one and done. When all that happened, it gave the mid-majors a chance to be competitive in the tourney because they had senior-laden teams, who had been playing together for years.
So three years ago you had George Mason make the Final Four and two more mid-majors in the Sweet 16. It isn't a surprise that in the following two seasons the selection committee only let in four at-large mid-majors.
The committee slammed the door on those teams because, as memory serves, George Mason was an at-large.
From a ratings standpoint and an interest standpoint, it was fantastic, but it was the selection committee's worst nightmare. It proved that mid-majors, when given the chance, could make a run.
So from that point on, the committee decided to take those chances away.

 

[zagoshe]

Historical context means little with the NBA jacking around when people can get drafted.
Power conference teams generally have the guys who are now going to be one and done. When all that happened, it gave the mid-majors a chance to be competitive in the tourney because they had senior-laden teams, who had been playing together for years.
So three years ago you had George Mason make the Final Four and two more mid-majors in the Sweet 16. It isn't a surprise that in the following two seasons the selection committee only let in four at-large mid-majors.
The committee slammed the door on those teams because, as memory serves, George Mason was an at-large.
From a ratings standpoint and an interest standpoint, it was fantastic, but it was the selection committee's worst nightmare. It proved that mid-majors, when given the chance, could make a run.
So from that point on, the committee decided to take those chances away.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

A team or there is good enough to get to the Sweet 16.

And to Oz's ridiculous point about St. Marys -- there are probably ten bubble teams from the major conferences who COULD have beaten Utah and Cleveland State to get to the Sweet 16.

But historically, those teams from mid--majors don't.

How many Missouri Valley, Horizon and whatever horse**** conference Gonzaga plays teams have made the Elite Eight? The Final Four?

**** throw in the Colonial since your entire argument rests on George Mason's miracle run.

Give me numbers, not sentimental nonsensical politically correct touchy feely feel good **** Vitale's stories about the little guys.

Like for instance, Siena was 1-5 against major conference teams.

That's a fact. That's a number.

"Siena had to play on the road and they might have won a few at home...."

That's sentimental bull**** that can never be quantified.

The fact is Siena played against six teams from major conferences and lost five of those games.

 

[derwood]

Siena would have trouble beating Providence and Notre Dame.