The South Does It Again

[Starman]

If slavery had been banned early on - even perhaps when we were still British colonies - there never would have been a Civil War. And states' rights would have centered around arcane, who-really-cares issues like tariffs on candles and where to draw a boundary in the middle of a river.

In fact, without the South declaring itself a seperate nation, slavery would have lasted a lot longer. Lincoln didn't have the votes to make it unconstitutional and the Northern states never would have backed any sort of war to get rid of it.

Probably. But I also agree with the person who said slavery probably would have died out within a generation or less as machines became more common in agriculture and there wasn't the same demand for physical labor.

Nazi Germany seemed to figure out creative ways to utilize slave labor in factory settings.

 

[Bradley Guire]

I have ancestors who fought for the Confederacy. As far as my genealogy research can tell me, they were poor and probably starving. A Confederate army paycheck looked pretty good in comparison. I don't think they had the luxury of standing on principle because theirs was a life of basic survival. They went knowingly to their deaths perhaps not understanding or not caring why they were fighting. All they knew is that it would help take care of their families.

Given that perspective, I don't get celebrating the Confederacy as part of my heritage. There's nothing to be proud of.

Or, to be more cynical about it, poor people dying for rich, old, white man's wars. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[93Devil]

The war ended over a century ago. The South lost.

Get over it.

If those idiots would have won, we would all be paying taxes to our German or Japanese overlords right now.

 

[Starman]

The war ended over a century ago. The South lost.

Get over it.

If those idiots would have won, we would all be paying taxes to our German or Japanese overlords right now.

But doing a bang-up job of slave importation and commerce with our fellow members of the Global Slave Confederation, South Africa and Brazil.

 

[Drip]

Here's a thought. This is the United States of America. If you don't like what's going on, you can leave.

 

[albert77]

Living where I do I get more "South will rise again" bull**** and see more Rebel flags (apart from the ones on the state flag) than I ever want to see in a lifetime.

I don't go quite so far as to say those who fought for the Confederacy were traitors, but the bottom line is that the strong union that came out of the Civil War was an historical necessity, especially as the 20th century progressed. Can you imagine a divided America during the Great War? And assuming that the Allies somehow won that war without American help (or perhaps with the war spreading to America), can you see a divided America against Hitler?

I cringe when I see amateur historians try to claim that the war had nothing to do with slavery. It had everything to do with slavery. All you have to do is go back and read the speeches and editorials that came out of the Southern states in 1860-61. They all defend secession as necessary to preserve their way of life. And knowing Southerners like I do, I am not confident slavery would have simply died out without a war. Hell, it really didn't die out after the war, just the name. As Starman so eloquently pointed out, Hitler had no problem using slave labor in an industrial setting.

And let's not assume that because the Union ended up crushing the Confederacy that it was inevitable. Until Grant and Sherman stepped to the front, the South had by far the better generals and a much better grasp of general tactics and strategy. There were a number of points that if one little factor goes the other way, then the South could well have prevailed. It really wasn't until the Chickamauga campaign in mid-1864 that the North finally made the outcome clear. Although after Vicksburg and Gettysburg, it's hard to see a Confederate victory, there were still plenty of panicky politicians in Washington who were urging Lincoln to settle for a negotiated peace, and Lincoln's re-election was not assured until those summer victories in '64.

 

[Morris816]

And let's not assume that because the Union ended up crushing the Confederacy that it was inevitable. Until Grant and Sherman stepped to the front, the South had by far the better generals and a much better grasp of general tactics and strategy. There were a number of points that if one little factor goes the other way, then the South could well have prevailed. It really wasn't until the Chickamauga campaign in mid-1864 that the North finally made the outcome clear. Although after Vicksburg and Gettysburg, it's hard to see a Confederate victory, there were still plenty of panicky politicians in Washington who were urging Lincoln to settle for a negotiated peace, and Lincoln's re-election was not assured until those summer victories in '64.

This is true, but the other factor was that the South really needed to get intervention from European nations, the bulk who opposed slavery. That's because the South, while having better leadership from its generals, was limited in terms of resources needed to fight the war and Europe would have served as that.

And in reference to the earlier "complex" remark I made, I was simply saying that it wasn't just slavery that divided the North and the South through the years -- although slavery was at the heart of secession.

 

[Oggiedoggie]

The South would have won if the referees wouldn't have blown all those calls.

 

[Drip]

The South would have won if the referees wouldn't have blown all those calls.

Who gives a ****? Coulda, woulda and shoulda aren't in the dictionary. The south lost. Get over it. Keep it moving. There's a lot more important things to worry about.

 

[93Devil]

The South would have won if the referees wouldn't have blown all those calls.

They were not worth a **** in the second half once the QB's top receiver went down.

 

[Baron Scicluna]

The South would have won if the referees wouldn't have blown all those calls.

Well it's not like the best referees want to work in Mobile, Alabama on Christmas Day.

 

[Inky_Wretch]

The South would have won if the referees wouldn't have blown all those calls.

They were not worth a **** in the second half once the QB's top receiver went down.

Or if they'd kept their eye on the ball, rather than chanting "SEC! SEC! SEC!" after a minor victory.

 

[Mark2010]

If slavery had been banned early on - even perhaps when we were still British colonies - there never would have been a Civil War. And states' rights would have centered around arcane, who-really-cares issues like tariffs on candles and where to draw a boundary in the middle of a river.

In fact, without the South declaring itself a seperate nation, slavery would have lasted a lot longer. Lincoln didn't have the votes to make it unconstitutional and the Northern states never would have backed any sort of war to get rid of it.

Probably. But I also agree with the person who said slavery probably would have died out within a generation or less as machines became more common in agriculture and there wasn't the same demand for physical labor.

Nazi Germany seemed to figure out creative ways to utilize slave labor in factory settings.

Apparently the northern states in the 1800s hadn't figured that out yet.

 

[Mark2010]

Here's a thought. This is the United States of America. If you don't like what's going on, you can leave.

Exactly. That's what the Confederate States did and, I suspect, will do again.

 

[Mark2010]

The South would have won if the referees wouldn't have blown all those calls.

Who gives a ****? Coulda, woulda and shoulda aren't in the dictionary. The south lost. Get over it. Keep it moving. There's a lot more important things to worry about.

Yeah. Like winning the next round.

 

[albert77]

And let's not assume that because the Union ended up crushing the Confederacy that it was inevitable. Until Grant and Sherman stepped to the front, the South had by far the better generals and a much better grasp of general tactics and strategy. There were a number of points that if one little factor goes the other way, then the South could well have prevailed. It really wasn't until the Chickamauga campaign in mid-1864 that the North finally made the outcome clear. Although after Vicksburg and Gettysburg, it's hard to see a Confederate victory, there were still plenty of panicky politicians in Washington who were urging Lincoln to settle for a negotiated peace, and Lincoln's re-election was not assured until those summer victories in '64.

This is true, but the other factor was that the South really needed to get intervention from European nations, the bulk who opposed slavery. That's because the South, while having better leadership from its generals, was limited in terms of resources needed to fight the war and Europe would have served as that.

Very true. That's why the lost plans that fell into Union hands prior to Antietam were so important.

Despite their opposition to slavery, Great Britain in the late summer of 1862 was leaning toward recognizing the Confederacy, primarily to keep the flow of Southern cotton to English textile mills going. And they probably would have persuaded France to do likewise, in exchange for Southern compliance with their adventure into Mexico.

When the Union stopped Lee at that moment, the UK chose not to support the South, and other European nations followed their lead.

Also, "winning the war" meant two very different things to each side. For the North, winning meant subjugating the South and restoring the Union. For the South, it was simply getting Lincoln to the peace table and negotiating either their survival as an independent nation or the return of Southern states to the Union on their terms, i.e. with slavery intact and allowed to spread.

 

[Drip]

Here's a thought. This is the United States of America. If you don't like what's going on, you can leave.

Exactly. That's what the Confederate States did and, I suspect, will do again.

Where in the **** are they going? As I posted earlier, it was a bad idea in 1861 and doesn't look like a good one in 2013.

 

[Tarheel316]

In Virginia it's JEB Stuart HS, Lee Highway, you name it. The confederacy was a great idea! Dumbasses.

Ugh. That is really, really bad.

In Jacksonville there's a high school named after Nathan Bedford Forest. Yeah, let's name a school after the guy who founded the Klan. Fantastic idea.